I've been wanting to talk about a topic for some time that it is considered controversial in our Orthodox world. I have hesitated due to the fact that I feel inadequate to really address it properly. In addition, I don't have a conclusion-just thoughts. It's my opinion that the issue of interaction between young men and women needs to be a reevaluted somewhat in the Jewish world. Anyone who's familiar with the way yeshiva and Bais Yaacov education works knows that young men and women are taught that interacting with the opposite sex is basically the ultimate sin. In a lot of communities, a boy talking to a girl is considered a taboo of epic proportions. Now, before all you dissenting commenters out there (You know who you are) start vilifying me for being a charedi basher again, let me explain. I am not one of those who argues that boys and girls should be encouraged to talk and hang out together. In fact, I think that usually it is better for boys and girls to be educated separately. I went to a coed school, and as one might imagine, there was a high rate of physical interaction. People did things that they later regretted and, I imagine, had a hard time telling their spouses about. It's fine with me if my children don't have a lot of experience with the opposite sex before marriage. I can testify that it's possible to never have had a serious relationship with someone of the opposite sex and still have a perfectly normal, happy relationship with one's spouse.
And yet...let me tell a little story. A friend of mine who lives in a smaller community was once telling me one reason why she likes living in a smaller Jewish community as opposed to Baltimore. She said that in Baltimore, if her preteen daughter would so much as look at a boy she would be disciplined by her school. As opposed to the smaller place she lived in, where although her daughter was not encouraged to be friends with boys, if she ever had the slightest interaction with them she wouldn't be treated as if she was going off the derech. Everyone knows that teenagers have hormones going wild and are very attracted to the opposite sex. To so unnaturally suppress these instincts is not a completely healthy thing, in my view. I had another conversation with some friends in which we discussed how girls in Bais Yaacovs are taught for so many years that, essentially, boys are bad and should be avoided at all costs. Then, the girls goes to seminary, comes back at 19, and, hey presto, she's ready to date. Is anything wrong with that picture? Can it be expected that normal interaction with a date and eventually a spouse will occur after so many years of suppressing a person's most natural instincts? A girl, or really even a boy as well, who buys into the theory that the opposite sex is bad, will often have a hard time coping with the new reality that they are now supposed to talk to the very people who have been taboos for them for so long.
So, you'll ask, I'm encouraging interaction between boys and girls? I hold that we should have social gatherings for yeshiva guys and girls? No, not really. I can't in any kind of honesty say that those things would be positive, at least for high school age kids. So I don't have a solution. But I do feel that the overwhelming emphasis on separation has become a somewhat negative thing. At some point, we have to teach our children how to interact with the opposite sex in a normal, healthy manner. Yeshiva guys should be able to go to a Shabbos meal and not ignore any woman at the table like she's not there. They should be able to offer to help clear the table and thank the hostess for the meal. If two teenagers of the opposite sex have the slightest conversation, they should not be made to feel that they have done a horrible sin and are on the slippery slope to not being frum. The total suppression of interaction is unhealthy perhaps even moreso for boys, who tend to view women as merely bodies and sex objects if they are so completely cut off from them. Again, the solution is not easy. I know that the rabbis and principals are doing their best for the spiritual health of their students. I think there has to be a loosening of the screws. Students should realize that they are expected to not have a lot of interaction with the opposite sex, but not feel that their teacher or parents will rip them apart if they do. I'm idealistic as always, but that's just me.
posted by Jewboy at 8:57 PM
31 Comments:
Joe Schick said...
I agree with your sentiments. However, it is probably impossible to find the right balance. On one hand, the halacha is very strict on these matters. On the other hand, boys and girls have to learn to interact in a normal manner. Encouraging normal interaction will benefit some, but also inevitably result in some other people acting in non-halachic ways.
Of course you're right that teens in the charedi world should be cut a lot more slack in this area.
Is your opposition to co-ed schools particular to high school, or for elementary school students too?
9:42 PM
bellanny said...
it is very hard to find a balance. i went to all girls schools until i got to college. i think that seperate schools for elementary and high schools is much better because there is a lot less pressure when in class and learning.
but i think going to a co-ed college is good because it allows for helathy interaction. sure there will always be people who take things too afr, but that goes for anything. even YU, which has seperate campuses and classes, still encourages interaction and mixed events. personally, i wish they would have a few more mixed classes beacuse i think in college guys should be able to see that women can stand up with the best of them.
10:13 PM
nircgrad said...
No bashing......I promise.
However that was an extremely contradictory post. On the one hand you wouldn't want your children interacting with members of the opposite sex, but you lament the schools teaching separation. All the school is doing is ensuring that your kid doesn't interact.
I agree that dating is difficult after all those years of separation, but if both sides are coming from the same background, there are no expectations that conversation will flow easily.
By the way, just to correct one fallacy, I don't believe Bais Yaakov will discipline a girl for talking to boys.
9:22 AM
peninah said...
I don't think the post was contracitory at all. I don't think JewBoy was saying that he "doesn't want his kids intereacting with the opposite sex." If I understand it correctly, I think that he was saying that he would not actively encourage them to do so.
I think this is a great discussion point. You are correct about the feelings towards the opposite sex that get carried over into dating and marriage. It is quite scary. On top of that, often, as soon as a boy and start dating they are so overcome with the excitement of finally being able to talk and interact with someone of the opposite sex, that often they end up marrying the first person they date whether that person be a suitable match for them.
I think another problem that you didn't quite touch upon is the fact that the schools etc. make the slightest of interaction between boys and girls so taboo that these kids often equate talking to the opposite sex with doing a whole lot more. I can't think of a specific example of this, but on the same token, I remember hearing that a well known Rabbi in Baltimore was once walking by a house on shabbos and there was a boy sitting outside smoking. When the Rabbi asked the boy why he was doing this, the boy answered, "well, my father told me I wasn't frum because I stopped wearing my hat so I figured that I could smoke on shabbos now."
I think that parents need to know what is going on with their children. Like it or not, SOME kids will want to interact with the opposite sex. I am not saying that we shouldl give them cart blanche to do so in any place or manner, but I do think if we put restrictions on them they are going to find ways of doing it anyway. I would much rather know what my children are doing than have them sneaking off to REALLY get into trouble.
I have been up since too early so I don't think this comment is as articulate as I would want it to be, so I apologize.
9:55 AM
nircgrad said...
I just want to add that I don't ever remember hearing a shmuess in High School about talking to girls, it was understood that it's wrong. I was definitely never taught to ignore girls.
I think this is really an issue that we agree on, what is important is to find a happy medium. I intend to teach my children not to talk to members of the opposite sex, but not to ignore them either.
10:07 AM
Greg said...
If I could paraphrase: the collective Orthodox Jewish world needs an enema.
11:39 AM
Greg said...
If I could paraphrase: the collective Orthodox Jewish world needs an enema.
11:49 AM
Jewboy said...
Joe-You're right, it is a very difficult issue. I was trying to convey some of that difficulty. In terms of coed schools, my opinions are not iron clad. Different things for different types of people are often necessary. Although a good deal of inappropriate interaction went on at my school, the types of kids who attended my school probably would not have gone to a single sex school, and would have been involved with girls anyway. For run of the mill frum kids, however, I think single sex schools are usually better. For elementary schools I don't think of it as such a big deal. My elementary school, which is now pretty right wing, was mixed through fifth grade when I was there. Perhaps the fact that it was mixed helped there be normal interaction later, I don't know.
Bellany-It's certainly good for colega age guys and girls to be able to interact normally. If a guy never says a word to a girl and then starts working with women, it could be awkward.
Nirgrad-Rather than being "extremely contradictory", I was clearly presenting two sides to the issue. Peninah was correct that I would not actively encourage my kids to interact, yet if they did I would not act as if the world came to an end.
In terms of the Bais Yaacov disclipining a girl ,my story did have slight exaggerations. I think you got the point, however. I knew of a case in which a boy was friends with a girl in high school, and it was a little more than just friends. The girl's school went nuts, making her sign contracts not to meet him and all kinds of crazy stuff like that. Of course it didn't accomplish what they wanted it to, so what was the point?
Peninah-You seem to have grasped the heart of my post best of anyone so far. You also added some good points. The phenomenon of guys marrying their first girl or vice versa because they are not used to the experience is a fascinating one, and one that I believe I have seen amongst people I know. One person who I believe suffered from this problem had a broken engagement because of it.
Your hat story is one I tried to allude to when I talked about how kids will think they are headed towards not being frum if they talk to the opposite sex. This kind of thing is a problem with kids in many areas nowadays.
11:50 AM
Yitzy said...
People,
Not to be disrespectful, but many of the statements that have been made in this post are incorrect and in my belief, rather naive.
I can only speak from my experience with the Baltimore community, but being that it was mentioned a number of times here, I think my points will be relevent.
Firstly, "Nircgrad" is correct in his assessment that BY does not "all out punish" girls who are hanging out with boys. I know that the school discourages these interactions, but they have had enough experience with it over the years, not to overreact.
When I was in high school, I was hanging out with a number of girls in Kosher Bite when one of the prominent Rabbis of the school walked in. The girls saw him yet didn't even flinch. When I asked if they would get in trouble for being with me, the girls responded by saying that they might get spoken to by the Rabbi, but nothing would really happen. So this belief that "all hell breaks loose" if boys and girls are caught interacting in Baltimore, is just false. In fact, for a city with such a large Jewish community, Baltimore seems to have an extremely relaxed approach to this subject, when compared with other cities.
Peninah- many of your statements show that you have a limited amount of experience with a "seperated" life-style.
Many of my friends who had all kinds of relationships with girls while in high school and even beyond, married the first girl they dated when set up on a shidduch. Many of my friends who had extremely limited interaction with girls before dating, have been dating for years and are still not married. The belief that a person will marry the first guy/girl they go out with because they are "so excited" by the novelty of it is just wrong.
There is this ridiculous belief in some circles that if a guy and girl don't interact on a regular basis while in the teenage years, the guy or girl will not know how to talk to the other when the time comes to date/marry/work/etc.
Let me ask you, if I know that when the time comes, I will have a number of African American coworkers at my job who come from a culture much different than mine, should I make sure to have as much interaction with them before I enter the workforce, so that I know how to speak to them when the time comes?
With certain things, Hashem has given us the ability to figure out with a limited amount of experience. After a few weeks on my job, I will be more sensitive to the differences between me and my african american coworkers. Ok, maybe I will make an insensitive statement, but I will learn from my mistakes and be ready for the next time. After a couple of dates, the guy or girl will figure it out too. My proof? The fact that a large number of my friends who had little to no social interaction with members of the opposite sex as teens, are happily married now.
In my mind, you are risking the potential of so many harms that can come out of a juvenile boy/girl relationship for what purpose?
So..I believe that it is important for parents to instill in their children a complete respect for the opposite sex. I agree with Jewboy that a conversation at a shabbos table is a safe, healthy way to have a bit of interaction with the opposite sex, without anything getting out of hand.
But some who believe that our children are "better off" by having more interaction with the opposite sex, is either oblivious to or is ignoring the number of boys and girls who have lost their virginity from something that only started out as a "small platonic friendship."
3:10 PM
peninah said...
Yitzi- I haven't seen you post on this blog before so I am assuming you are a new reader or you have recently "delurked". The point of this comment is not going to be to respond to your comments (although I may do that later), rather, I just want to offer some advice to you. Especially when commenting here (assuming JewBoy doesn't mind).
Please don't make assumptions about any of the commenters on this blog based on a few sentences or paragraphs that you might have read by them. It is a problem when people do this in the limited world of blogging, but it represents and even greater problem that we have in the real world. For the most part, the people who post on this blog are thinking individuals who want to do what is best for themselves and their families in the realm of Judaism (as I am sure you are as well). They usually comment with well thought-out and intelligent ideas. I just want you to realize this before you start making assumptions about the people who read this blog.
If you are wondering what sparked this diatribe, it is the assumption you made about me. I definitely do not have a limited amount of experience with a "separated lifstyle" I am a Bais Yaakov graduate who grew up in a frum yet accepting home. I did have interactions with boys growing up, but they were always under the guidance and with the knowledge of my parents (and no my parents are not liberal modern orthodox jews who encouraged their kids to socialize with the opposite sex).
Honestly, I don't think my parents would have chosen for their kids to interact with the opposite sex. It is definitely easier not to have to deal with that kind of stuff when your kids are teenagers. My parents had a theory though. They raised us with a rope. They'd let their children out with the rope, always keeping an eye, and a handle on the rope and always making sure their children knew they were connected to the rope. If it were ever needed, they would exercise their rights to pull their children back in with that rope.
I have to say, this was a great way to be raised. There was always open communication in my home, especially when it came to the opposite sex. I really believe that that is one of the reasons I didn't do anything bad while growing up. I think if my parents had forbade me or my sibling from interacting with the opposite sex, it would have had the opposite affect.
I know there have been cases of teenagers losing their virgity within the frum community. But this slippery slope argument that platonic relationships turn into kids losing their virginity seems misplaced. I think this is the point the JewBoy was trying to make originally. You can't equate boys and girls talking to eachother to them losing their virginity. It sends an unbelievably confusing message to these kids that the two are comperable. In the scheme of things, they definitely are not.
4:21 PM
nircgrad said...
Yitzy,
That was an extremely well thought out post, although you are incorrect about Peninah's background.
Peninah,
I don't think Yitzy meant anything against you with his post, though he clearly got your goat. He was just articulating that a permissive atitude to social interaction with members of the opposite sex can lead to problems. Knowing your father pretty well I know that to not be true with you.
4:46 PM
Yitzy said...
Peninah,
I'm sorry if my words offended you. That was not my intention. Thank you for explaining what you did in such a respectful tone. I too am an open-minded thinking individual. My statement about your lack of exposure to the "more seperated" community was inapproriate.
The truth is though, I found it a bit insulting for you to generalize an entire culture of yeshiva bochurim who have made the choice to refrain from casual social interaction with the opposite sex, something which I believe should be commended, as being a bunch of non-thinking individuals who will probably marry the first girl they date out of the excitement of socializing for the first.
The same way that it would be wrong and close-minded of me to make general statements about the modern orthodox community, the same is true of the modern to the more right winged.
Also, I felt that your statements about the frummer schools making such a big deal about boys and girls interacting was a bit too generalized as well.
If I were to say, "It is horrible that a school like Rambam puts the importance of revering Ben Gurion and Hertzel above Torah Study", you would say that though Rambam impresses an ahava for Israel, my statement is incorrect.
So too by the more right winged schools, there is obviously a stress placed on the importance of refraining from socialization with opposite gender, however, I don't think it is done in an overreacting kind of way.
In regards to your parenting statements, I believe that the approach your parents exhibited was a healthy one. However, it has nothing to do with this notion that "boys and girls SHOULD interact at an early age."
I am obviously not naive enough to believe that all the boys and girls who socialize in high school will lose their virginity and in no way am I equating the two. I socialized with girls and still managed to stay shomer negiah. I also agree that a parent who makes their child believe that speaking with a boy and losing ones virginity are similar, needs some serious parenting classes. However, I do know for a fact that one of the more modern orthodox girls schools in the local area did indeed have at least 6 girls lose their virginity before graduating high school. This number was from one class. The class of my graduating year. The school is not an unusually large school either. It does indeed happen.
My point is, lets just say for a second that great parenting will substantially limit the chance that a child will go this far. I think we both know that this is no gaurantee but lets assume this is the case for a second. My question is, what purpose does the socializing serve? Is it so a child is more adept at speaking with opposite sex when the time comes to date? Don't we have the confidence in our children to believe that they have decent enough social skills to manage well enough when the time comes? Why take a risk? That is my point.
I see great potential harmful risk on one side, and very little positive outcomes on the other. To me its a no brainer.
4:53 PM
Joe Schick said...
Regarding "the number of boys and girls who have lost their virginity from something that only started out as a "small platonic friendship":
The reality is that this could happen because parents and schools are too strict, forbidding even limited social interaction, so that "rebellious" teens view a platonic friendship is "bad" enough and therefore end up doing much more.
It could also happen because parents and schools are too tolerant, allowing more than limited social interaction, which, given teens' hormones, could also end up result in this kind of activity.
As stated above, it is probably impossible to find the right balance. Each person is different and needs to be treated differently.
As for charedi schools treatment of those who hang out with the opposite sex, in the charedi high school that I attended, it was quite severe. I guess Brooklyn schools are more extreme in this regard than Baltmore schools.
4:56 PM
Yitzy said...
Joe,
Though I agree that anything is possible anywhere, I think it is pretty much understood that the more exposure you have to something, the more chance something else will follow.
The gemara describes the situation with this tayva as being, "marvayah rav, masbiah saveah". The more you feed it, the more it needs, the more you refrain, the more satisfied.
I don't think there are many out there who would think, "hey, I spoke with a girl today, might as well go all the way." It's not like a guy who slept through shachris one day and gets a musser shmooze for it, is going to eat pork tomorrow. No matter how one is brought up, people understand that there are different levels of wrong.
The child who says, "my parents yelled at me for having a boyfriend so I figured I might as well sleep with him" is lying to herself.
Though there are exceptions, generally, the less exposure one has to an activity, the less chance they will engage in it.
5:11 PM
Joe Schick said...
"Though there are exceptions, generally, the less exposure one has to an activity, the less chance they will engage in it."
For the most part, I agree. However, if, say, a kid is thrown out of school for hanging out with a member of the opposite gender, I do think there's an increased risk that they will rebel further and engage in ant-halachic behavior.
While this may not be a concern in Baltimore, in the charedi high school I attended, a number of boys were expelled after 11th grade, most for rather minor infractions.
5:32 PM
yitzy said...
Joe,
Yes, I agree with you. When a child is expelled, there is a slim to no chance that he or she will suddenly change his or her ways.
I'm not talking about the school responding in that way.
I am only disagreeing with the belief of those "that it is health for our young boys and girls to socialize so they will know how to interact with the general world."
6:21 PM
Joe Schick said...
"I am only disagreeing with the belief of those 'that it is health for our young boys and girls to socialize so they will know how to interact with the general world.'"
Socializing is different from (limited) interaction. Without the latter, I tend to agree with Jewboy that many teens will view members of the opposite gender as sexual objects.
6:33 PM
Openyoureyes said...
I do not have much to say on the topic, but a very reputable source (which will remain anonymous) heard first-hand from a local shul Rav (who will also remain anonymous) that in a recent graduating class of a certain right-wing single sex female school there were between 7-9 ABORTIONS (not girls losing virginity - ABORTIONS). I realize that this statement is a bit controversial and will not be easily-taken, but the sources will remain anonymous.
7:14 PM
Joe Schick said...
I do not have much to say on the topic, but a very reputable source (which will remain anonymous) heard first-hand from a local shul Rav (who will also remain anonymous) that in a recent graduating class of a certain right-wing single sex male school there were between 7-9 boys smoking MARIJUANA (not smoking cigarettes - MARIJUANA). I realize that this statement is a bit controversial and will not be easily-taken, but the sources will remain anonymous.
Seriously, please don't anonymously post information from a second anonymous source, heard "first-hand" from a third anonymous source, about something relating to "7-9" additionally anonymous people.
9:12 PM
yitzy said...
"Socializing is different from (limited) interaction. Without the latter, I tend to agree with Jewboy that many teens will view members of the opposite gender as sexual objects. "
Joe,
Honestly, if I didn't have first hand experience, knowing a number of people who have had limited interaction with the opposite gender for all their life before dating, I would agree with you 100%. However, the overwhelming majority of individuals who I know who have abstained from these casual interactions, have if anything more respect for women than anybody else I know. I do not know of a single case (and this is coming from years of learning in yeshiva) of guys who had been so repressed, that they viewed women plainly as sex objects.
10:43 PM
openyoureyes said...
Mr. Shick,
Nobody is asking you to believe my comments. What I am posting is true information, regardless of the fact that I am posting anonymously, or the fact that I am citing anonymous sources. Don't believe me? Do a little prodding yourself, you'll see it's true.
Would it give it any more credibility if I logged in under my blogger name?
6:29 AM
Elster said...
Excellent POst - Nice little indercurrent arguments that follow. All good stuff.
I agree with Jewboy. I think that there is a real need for some interaction between the sexes - which does not necessarily mean there need be yeshina sponsered events, but maybe a little loostening of the reigns when 2 kids say hello to each other motzei shabbos in the pizza store. The taboo is too great and, therefore, it has a negative impact on healthy development of teens.
Now again, not to quote secondary or third hand sources, but we probably all know of a yeshivah boy or BY girl or two who was sneaking around doing things they weren't supposed to. The more you say no to kids like this, the more they are going to want to see what all the "fuss" is about.
And also there is the whole issue of objectification/piece of meat issue. If you never speak to someone of the opposite sex, how can you possibly see that they have feelings, thoughts and the like, as opposed to a means towards sexual gratification and baby making? No offense.
9:48 AM
ytizy said...
elster,
This idea that the more you say no, the more someone will want to find out about it, would apply by pretty much anything else, except for this topic.
Sex is in an instinctual drive. It is out of control. In torah, it is often compared to fire, that if not kept in check, can turn into a blaze.
Kids are not running out and being promiscous, plainly to be rebellious against their parents and teachers who are saying no (though I am not saying this would never play a part in it either). There are hormones flying all over the place with these kids. I don't think a single boy or girl is saying, "well I don't really have a tayva to do this stuff, but now that my mom keeps saying no, I better go check it out." Putting gedarim on children is important. Everyone needs to have bounderies, especially children. Now if you wanted to bring up what a parent or teacher should do after discovering a child has been "messing around", that is a different story. But initially, I think that the casual socializing in friendships and etc. should be discouraged.
Your last point, the "piece of meat" syndrome, just does not exist. I know many think that it should logically, but it just doesn't. I have yet to meet someone who refrained from speaking to girls in high school (and I know hundreds of these people) who now objectifies women because of it. As I said before, if anything, these guys have more respect for women.
9:58 AM
Jewboy said...
Well, there's certainly been some interesting discussion here. I'll try to address a few people as best I can.
Yitz-I think a lot of your points are good. I too haven't been one to subscribe to the theory that girls and boys should talk because later on they need to know how to relate. This is a tough issue and I'm not proposing that we just promote social scenes without second thought. I just think, like Peninah has said, that treating talking to girls like a cardinal sin can be dangerous. I think that kids will have a more healthy mindset if everyone lightens up little. We all know that boys and girls will inevitably fool around, even those from yeshivos and Bais Yaacovs. The question is how to deal with it best. I think that the approach Peninah described her parents having is the best way-let your kids know your expectations, but don't go nuts. Also, I was not only referring to the way things are done in Baltimore in my post, but the Jewish world as a whole.
Peninah-Good job objecting to Yitzi in a respectful manner. I agree that we can't make assumptions about people in the blog world.
Yitzi again-You say that bochurim can diffrentiate between levels of wrongdoing, i.e. talking and doing a lot more. Possibly true, but also realize that bochurim who never speak to girls are afected a lot more than others if a girl suddenly makes conversation with them. I know this from experience in Israel. Whereas someone with experience talking to girls would say, no big deal, a guy who never has contact with girls can get all kinds of strange feelings.
Joe-It's a shame kids were thrown out for these minor infractions. Hopefully they didn't go of the derech. Good points as always.
Openyoureyes-While I'm sure you're teling the truth, it does sound a bit dubious when you quote a whole cahin of anonymoue sources who hear from each other. Perhaps it would be better to say "I heard from someone, etc.
10:21 AM
Joe Schick said...
Yitzy: I don't think we disagree strongly, but do get the sense that our experiences with the charedi world's treatment of this issue has differed. When I was in yeshiva, I heard rebbis say that we should even avoid saying hello to female cousins. Another time, in bais medrash, some guys (probably around 19 years old) were talking to a girl outside yeshiva (admittedly not the smartest thing to do) and a rebbi walked over and admonished them saying - in front of the girl - "if you're talking to girls, couldn't you at least find a good looking one to talk to?"
openyoureyes: Obviously I have no idea whether what you write about is true, but your refusal to name any sources makes it seem unlikely. Furthermore, even if it is true, it is impossible to ascertain why these girls were sexually active, since no circumstances or context are offered.
10:23 AM
Elster said...
Yitzy you say I'm wrong but don't really back it up. I disagree with you re: objectification. it's simply natural to objectify and generalize that which we have no connection or exposure to. It's a fact of life.
12:19 PM
Yitzy said...
Elster,
I can only speak from a male perspective as I have not spent any time in a BY, but the yeshivas that I attended, while stressing the importance of refraining from casual relationships with females, also praised the inherent goodness of a woman. The concept that the female is to be looked at as a princess, and that she has the noble responsibility of raising the next generation of talmidei chachomim was brought up constantly. That a woman is to be tznius and that her true beauty is on the inside were also discussed.
I'm not sure about you, but none of this in my opinion negatively objectifies women. This would not encourage a man to look at a woman as a piece of meat or as merely a means for sexual gratification.
I believe that your point would be true if the schools and yeshivas were to tell boys/girls "stay away from the opposite sex" and then leave at that. However, I know this is not the case.
1:05 PM
Jewboy said...
Yitzi-It is certainly true that not all yeshiva bochurim think of women as objects. Nor do yeshivos teach guys these types of things. To be fair to Elster, I think he still has a good point. The problem is not so much in what yeshivos teach guys as it is what mindsets are created from being so cut off from females. Again, this is certainly not an issue with all yeshiva bochurim, or even most, I would venture to say.
2:05 PM
yitzy said...
Jewboy,
I will admit that there are some yeshiva bochurim who would "objectify" women. However, I don't believe that the "seperation of the sexes" is the cause of this. There are people in every part of society who behave inapproriately with the opposite sex. Looking at the different cultures as a whole, the right winged orthodox Jewish community does NOT have a reputation for promiscuity or chauvanism.
Basically, there are tons of immoral male pigs who frequent bars on a nightly basis solely to hook up with women. These are men who grew up socializing with women their whole lives!
As a former graduate of Ner Israel, I would like you to think of the percentage of high school boys and yeshiva bochurim who you think would objectify/socialize with/hook up with women.
Now take that small percentage and tell me how many of these guys are behaving this way because they have been so separated?
I think both you and I know that this tiny percentage is made up of individuals who would be doing ten times worse, were they in a co-ed environment their whole lives.
In my experience with speaking with Ner Israel students, the ones who had the most limited regular exposure with women, were often the guys who were the most respectful of women.
3:12 PM
Jewboy said...
Yitzi-Valid points. However, I have experienced guys who were totally unreasonable about their demands for looks in a wife. They wanted supermodels and nothing less. I heard of a guy rejecting a girl he actually liked because the girl was "little girl" pretty and not really pretty. Crazy. This phenomenon can be blamed on many things and is certainly not the case with all bochurim. Nut I think that some of this way of thinking may develop from such limited contact with girls. Boys then have a hard time seeing past the mere body.
7:53 PM
Outoftown said...
I don't know about the BY in Baltimore, but at the BY I used to work at, talking to boys was indeed a very serious offense. I have a friend with older daughters (12 and up) who said she was going not going to be able to invite certain friends for Shabbos anymore because they had older sons.
I think the best way for boys and girls to relate to each other would be if their families are invited for shabbos to families with children of the opposite sex, and taught to relate normally. Being able to speak, and not be embarrassed, to memebers of the opposite sex at a Shabbos table, with your parents present, should be a goal that parents have.
Of course, my oldest son in only 4, so I am certainly no expert.
12:14 PM
And yet...let me tell a little story. A friend of mine who lives in a smaller community was once telling me one reason why she likes living in a smaller Jewish community as opposed to Baltimore. She said that in Baltimore, if her preteen daughter would so much as look at a boy she would be disciplined by her school. As opposed to the smaller place she lived in, where although her daughter was not encouraged to be friends with boys, if she ever had the slightest interaction with them she wouldn't be treated as if she was going off the derech. Everyone knows that teenagers have hormones going wild and are very attracted to the opposite sex. To so unnaturally suppress these instincts is not a completely healthy thing, in my view. I had another conversation with some friends in which we discussed how girls in Bais Yaacovs are taught for so many years that, essentially, boys are bad and should be avoided at all costs. Then, the girls goes to seminary, comes back at 19, and, hey presto, she's ready to date. Is anything wrong with that picture? Can it be expected that normal interaction with a date and eventually a spouse will occur after so many years of suppressing a person's most natural instincts? A girl, or really even a boy as well, who buys into the theory that the opposite sex is bad, will often have a hard time coping with the new reality that they are now supposed to talk to the very people who have been taboos for them for so long.
So, you'll ask, I'm encouraging interaction between boys and girls? I hold that we should have social gatherings for yeshiva guys and girls? No, not really. I can't in any kind of honesty say that those things would be positive, at least for high school age kids. So I don't have a solution. But I do feel that the overwhelming emphasis on separation has become a somewhat negative thing. At some point, we have to teach our children how to interact with the opposite sex in a normal, healthy manner. Yeshiva guys should be able to go to a Shabbos meal and not ignore any woman at the table like she's not there. They should be able to offer to help clear the table and thank the hostess for the meal. If two teenagers of the opposite sex have the slightest conversation, they should not be made to feel that they have done a horrible sin and are on the slippery slope to not being frum. The total suppression of interaction is unhealthy perhaps even moreso for boys, who tend to view women as merely bodies and sex objects if they are so completely cut off from them. Again, the solution is not easy. I know that the rabbis and principals are doing their best for the spiritual health of their students. I think there has to be a loosening of the screws. Students should realize that they are expected to not have a lot of interaction with the opposite sex, but not feel that their teacher or parents will rip them apart if they do. I'm idealistic as always, but that's just me.
posted by Jewboy at 8:57 PM
31 Comments:
Joe Schick said...
I agree with your sentiments. However, it is probably impossible to find the right balance. On one hand, the halacha is very strict on these matters. On the other hand, boys and girls have to learn to interact in a normal manner. Encouraging normal interaction will benefit some, but also inevitably result in some other people acting in non-halachic ways.
Of course you're right that teens in the charedi world should be cut a lot more slack in this area.
Is your opposition to co-ed schools particular to high school, or for elementary school students too?
9:42 PM
bellanny said...
it is very hard to find a balance. i went to all girls schools until i got to college. i think that seperate schools for elementary and high schools is much better because there is a lot less pressure when in class and learning.
but i think going to a co-ed college is good because it allows for helathy interaction. sure there will always be people who take things too afr, but that goes for anything. even YU, which has seperate campuses and classes, still encourages interaction and mixed events. personally, i wish they would have a few more mixed classes beacuse i think in college guys should be able to see that women can stand up with the best of them.
10:13 PM
nircgrad said...
No bashing......I promise.
However that was an extremely contradictory post. On the one hand you wouldn't want your children interacting with members of the opposite sex, but you lament the schools teaching separation. All the school is doing is ensuring that your kid doesn't interact.
I agree that dating is difficult after all those years of separation, but if both sides are coming from the same background, there are no expectations that conversation will flow easily.
By the way, just to correct one fallacy, I don't believe Bais Yaakov will discipline a girl for talking to boys.
9:22 AM
peninah said...
I don't think the post was contracitory at all. I don't think JewBoy was saying that he "doesn't want his kids intereacting with the opposite sex." If I understand it correctly, I think that he was saying that he would not actively encourage them to do so.
I think this is a great discussion point. You are correct about the feelings towards the opposite sex that get carried over into dating and marriage. It is quite scary. On top of that, often, as soon as a boy and start dating they are so overcome with the excitement of finally being able to talk and interact with someone of the opposite sex, that often they end up marrying the first person they date whether that person be a suitable match for them.
I think another problem that you didn't quite touch upon is the fact that the schools etc. make the slightest of interaction between boys and girls so taboo that these kids often equate talking to the opposite sex with doing a whole lot more. I can't think of a specific example of this, but on the same token, I remember hearing that a well known Rabbi in Baltimore was once walking by a house on shabbos and there was a boy sitting outside smoking. When the Rabbi asked the boy why he was doing this, the boy answered, "well, my father told me I wasn't frum because I stopped wearing my hat so I figured that I could smoke on shabbos now."
I think that parents need to know what is going on with their children. Like it or not, SOME kids will want to interact with the opposite sex. I am not saying that we shouldl give them cart blanche to do so in any place or manner, but I do think if we put restrictions on them they are going to find ways of doing it anyway. I would much rather know what my children are doing than have them sneaking off to REALLY get into trouble.
I have been up since too early so I don't think this comment is as articulate as I would want it to be, so I apologize.
9:55 AM
nircgrad said...
I just want to add that I don't ever remember hearing a shmuess in High School about talking to girls, it was understood that it's wrong. I was definitely never taught to ignore girls.
I think this is really an issue that we agree on, what is important is to find a happy medium. I intend to teach my children not to talk to members of the opposite sex, but not to ignore them either.
10:07 AM
Greg said...
If I could paraphrase: the collective Orthodox Jewish world needs an enema.
11:39 AM
Greg said...
If I could paraphrase: the collective Orthodox Jewish world needs an enema.
11:49 AM
Jewboy said...
Joe-You're right, it is a very difficult issue. I was trying to convey some of that difficulty. In terms of coed schools, my opinions are not iron clad. Different things for different types of people are often necessary. Although a good deal of inappropriate interaction went on at my school, the types of kids who attended my school probably would not have gone to a single sex school, and would have been involved with girls anyway. For run of the mill frum kids, however, I think single sex schools are usually better. For elementary schools I don't think of it as such a big deal. My elementary school, which is now pretty right wing, was mixed through fifth grade when I was there. Perhaps the fact that it was mixed helped there be normal interaction later, I don't know.
Bellany-It's certainly good for colega age guys and girls to be able to interact normally. If a guy never says a word to a girl and then starts working with women, it could be awkward.
Nirgrad-Rather than being "extremely contradictory", I was clearly presenting two sides to the issue. Peninah was correct that I would not actively encourage my kids to interact, yet if they did I would not act as if the world came to an end.
In terms of the Bais Yaacov disclipining a girl ,my story did have slight exaggerations. I think you got the point, however. I knew of a case in which a boy was friends with a girl in high school, and it was a little more than just friends. The girl's school went nuts, making her sign contracts not to meet him and all kinds of crazy stuff like that. Of course it didn't accomplish what they wanted it to, so what was the point?
Peninah-You seem to have grasped the heart of my post best of anyone so far. You also added some good points. The phenomenon of guys marrying their first girl or vice versa because they are not used to the experience is a fascinating one, and one that I believe I have seen amongst people I know. One person who I believe suffered from this problem had a broken engagement because of it.
Your hat story is one I tried to allude to when I talked about how kids will think they are headed towards not being frum if they talk to the opposite sex. This kind of thing is a problem with kids in many areas nowadays.
11:50 AM
Yitzy said...
People,
Not to be disrespectful, but many of the statements that have been made in this post are incorrect and in my belief, rather naive.
I can only speak from my experience with the Baltimore community, but being that it was mentioned a number of times here, I think my points will be relevent.
Firstly, "Nircgrad" is correct in his assessment that BY does not "all out punish" girls who are hanging out with boys. I know that the school discourages these interactions, but they have had enough experience with it over the years, not to overreact.
When I was in high school, I was hanging out with a number of girls in Kosher Bite when one of the prominent Rabbis of the school walked in. The girls saw him yet didn't even flinch. When I asked if they would get in trouble for being with me, the girls responded by saying that they might get spoken to by the Rabbi, but nothing would really happen. So this belief that "all hell breaks loose" if boys and girls are caught interacting in Baltimore, is just false. In fact, for a city with such a large Jewish community, Baltimore seems to have an extremely relaxed approach to this subject, when compared with other cities.
Peninah- many of your statements show that you have a limited amount of experience with a "seperated" life-style.
Many of my friends who had all kinds of relationships with girls while in high school and even beyond, married the first girl they dated when set up on a shidduch. Many of my friends who had extremely limited interaction with girls before dating, have been dating for years and are still not married. The belief that a person will marry the first guy/girl they go out with because they are "so excited" by the novelty of it is just wrong.
There is this ridiculous belief in some circles that if a guy and girl don't interact on a regular basis while in the teenage years, the guy or girl will not know how to talk to the other when the time comes to date/marry/work/etc.
Let me ask you, if I know that when the time comes, I will have a number of African American coworkers at my job who come from a culture much different than mine, should I make sure to have as much interaction with them before I enter the workforce, so that I know how to speak to them when the time comes?
With certain things, Hashem has given us the ability to figure out with a limited amount of experience. After a few weeks on my job, I will be more sensitive to the differences between me and my african american coworkers. Ok, maybe I will make an insensitive statement, but I will learn from my mistakes and be ready for the next time. After a couple of dates, the guy or girl will figure it out too. My proof? The fact that a large number of my friends who had little to no social interaction with members of the opposite sex as teens, are happily married now.
In my mind, you are risking the potential of so many harms that can come out of a juvenile boy/girl relationship for what purpose?
So..I believe that it is important for parents to instill in their children a complete respect for the opposite sex. I agree with Jewboy that a conversation at a shabbos table is a safe, healthy way to have a bit of interaction with the opposite sex, without anything getting out of hand.
But some who believe that our children are "better off" by having more interaction with the opposite sex, is either oblivious to or is ignoring the number of boys and girls who have lost their virginity from something that only started out as a "small platonic friendship."
3:10 PM
peninah said...
Yitzi- I haven't seen you post on this blog before so I am assuming you are a new reader or you have recently "delurked". The point of this comment is not going to be to respond to your comments (although I may do that later), rather, I just want to offer some advice to you. Especially when commenting here (assuming JewBoy doesn't mind).
Please don't make assumptions about any of the commenters on this blog based on a few sentences or paragraphs that you might have read by them. It is a problem when people do this in the limited world of blogging, but it represents and even greater problem that we have in the real world. For the most part, the people who post on this blog are thinking individuals who want to do what is best for themselves and their families in the realm of Judaism (as I am sure you are as well). They usually comment with well thought-out and intelligent ideas. I just want you to realize this before you start making assumptions about the people who read this blog.
If you are wondering what sparked this diatribe, it is the assumption you made about me. I definitely do not have a limited amount of experience with a "separated lifstyle" I am a Bais Yaakov graduate who grew up in a frum yet accepting home. I did have interactions with boys growing up, but they were always under the guidance and with the knowledge of my parents (and no my parents are not liberal modern orthodox jews who encouraged their kids to socialize with the opposite sex).
Honestly, I don't think my parents would have chosen for their kids to interact with the opposite sex. It is definitely easier not to have to deal with that kind of stuff when your kids are teenagers. My parents had a theory though. They raised us with a rope. They'd let their children out with the rope, always keeping an eye, and a handle on the rope and always making sure their children knew they were connected to the rope. If it were ever needed, they would exercise their rights to pull their children back in with that rope.
I have to say, this was a great way to be raised. There was always open communication in my home, especially when it came to the opposite sex. I really believe that that is one of the reasons I didn't do anything bad while growing up. I think if my parents had forbade me or my sibling from interacting with the opposite sex, it would have had the opposite affect.
I know there have been cases of teenagers losing their virgity within the frum community. But this slippery slope argument that platonic relationships turn into kids losing their virginity seems misplaced. I think this is the point the JewBoy was trying to make originally. You can't equate boys and girls talking to eachother to them losing their virginity. It sends an unbelievably confusing message to these kids that the two are comperable. In the scheme of things, they definitely are not.
4:21 PM
nircgrad said...
Yitzy,
That was an extremely well thought out post, although you are incorrect about Peninah's background.
Peninah,
I don't think Yitzy meant anything against you with his post, though he clearly got your goat. He was just articulating that a permissive atitude to social interaction with members of the opposite sex can lead to problems. Knowing your father pretty well I know that to not be true with you.
4:46 PM
Yitzy said...
Peninah,
I'm sorry if my words offended you. That was not my intention. Thank you for explaining what you did in such a respectful tone. I too am an open-minded thinking individual. My statement about your lack of exposure to the "more seperated" community was inapproriate.
The truth is though, I found it a bit insulting for you to generalize an entire culture of yeshiva bochurim who have made the choice to refrain from casual social interaction with the opposite sex, something which I believe should be commended, as being a bunch of non-thinking individuals who will probably marry the first girl they date out of the excitement of socializing for the first.
The same way that it would be wrong and close-minded of me to make general statements about the modern orthodox community, the same is true of the modern to the more right winged.
Also, I felt that your statements about the frummer schools making such a big deal about boys and girls interacting was a bit too generalized as well.
If I were to say, "It is horrible that a school like Rambam puts the importance of revering Ben Gurion and Hertzel above Torah Study", you would say that though Rambam impresses an ahava for Israel, my statement is incorrect.
So too by the more right winged schools, there is obviously a stress placed on the importance of refraining from socialization with opposite gender, however, I don't think it is done in an overreacting kind of way.
In regards to your parenting statements, I believe that the approach your parents exhibited was a healthy one. However, it has nothing to do with this notion that "boys and girls SHOULD interact at an early age."
I am obviously not naive enough to believe that all the boys and girls who socialize in high school will lose their virginity and in no way am I equating the two. I socialized with girls and still managed to stay shomer negiah. I also agree that a parent who makes their child believe that speaking with a boy and losing ones virginity are similar, needs some serious parenting classes. However, I do know for a fact that one of the more modern orthodox girls schools in the local area did indeed have at least 6 girls lose their virginity before graduating high school. This number was from one class. The class of my graduating year. The school is not an unusually large school either. It does indeed happen.
My point is, lets just say for a second that great parenting will substantially limit the chance that a child will go this far. I think we both know that this is no gaurantee but lets assume this is the case for a second. My question is, what purpose does the socializing serve? Is it so a child is more adept at speaking with opposite sex when the time comes to date? Don't we have the confidence in our children to believe that they have decent enough social skills to manage well enough when the time comes? Why take a risk? That is my point.
I see great potential harmful risk on one side, and very little positive outcomes on the other. To me its a no brainer.
4:53 PM
Joe Schick said...
Regarding "the number of boys and girls who have lost their virginity from something that only started out as a "small platonic friendship":
The reality is that this could happen because parents and schools are too strict, forbidding even limited social interaction, so that "rebellious" teens view a platonic friendship is "bad" enough and therefore end up doing much more.
It could also happen because parents and schools are too tolerant, allowing more than limited social interaction, which, given teens' hormones, could also end up result in this kind of activity.
As stated above, it is probably impossible to find the right balance. Each person is different and needs to be treated differently.
As for charedi schools treatment of those who hang out with the opposite sex, in the charedi high school that I attended, it was quite severe. I guess Brooklyn schools are more extreme in this regard than Baltmore schools.
4:56 PM
Yitzy said...
Joe,
Though I agree that anything is possible anywhere, I think it is pretty much understood that the more exposure you have to something, the more chance something else will follow.
The gemara describes the situation with this tayva as being, "marvayah rav, masbiah saveah". The more you feed it, the more it needs, the more you refrain, the more satisfied.
I don't think there are many out there who would think, "hey, I spoke with a girl today, might as well go all the way." It's not like a guy who slept through shachris one day and gets a musser shmooze for it, is going to eat pork tomorrow. No matter how one is brought up, people understand that there are different levels of wrong.
The child who says, "my parents yelled at me for having a boyfriend so I figured I might as well sleep with him" is lying to herself.
Though there are exceptions, generally, the less exposure one has to an activity, the less chance they will engage in it.
5:11 PM
Joe Schick said...
"Though there are exceptions, generally, the less exposure one has to an activity, the less chance they will engage in it."
For the most part, I agree. However, if, say, a kid is thrown out of school for hanging out with a member of the opposite gender, I do think there's an increased risk that they will rebel further and engage in ant-halachic behavior.
While this may not be a concern in Baltimore, in the charedi high school I attended, a number of boys were expelled after 11th grade, most for rather minor infractions.
5:32 PM
yitzy said...
Joe,
Yes, I agree with you. When a child is expelled, there is a slim to no chance that he or she will suddenly change his or her ways.
I'm not talking about the school responding in that way.
I am only disagreeing with the belief of those "that it is health for our young boys and girls to socialize so they will know how to interact with the general world."
6:21 PM
Joe Schick said...
"I am only disagreeing with the belief of those 'that it is health for our young boys and girls to socialize so they will know how to interact with the general world.'"
Socializing is different from (limited) interaction. Without the latter, I tend to agree with Jewboy that many teens will view members of the opposite gender as sexual objects.
6:33 PM
Openyoureyes said...
I do not have much to say on the topic, but a very reputable source (which will remain anonymous) heard first-hand from a local shul Rav (who will also remain anonymous) that in a recent graduating class of a certain right-wing single sex female school there were between 7-9 ABORTIONS (not girls losing virginity - ABORTIONS). I realize that this statement is a bit controversial and will not be easily-taken, but the sources will remain anonymous.
7:14 PM
Joe Schick said...
I do not have much to say on the topic, but a very reputable source (which will remain anonymous) heard first-hand from a local shul Rav (who will also remain anonymous) that in a recent graduating class of a certain right-wing single sex male school there were between 7-9 boys smoking MARIJUANA (not smoking cigarettes - MARIJUANA). I realize that this statement is a bit controversial and will not be easily-taken, but the sources will remain anonymous.
Seriously, please don't anonymously post information from a second anonymous source, heard "first-hand" from a third anonymous source, about something relating to "7-9" additionally anonymous people.
9:12 PM
yitzy said...
"Socializing is different from (limited) interaction. Without the latter, I tend to agree with Jewboy that many teens will view members of the opposite gender as sexual objects. "
Joe,
Honestly, if I didn't have first hand experience, knowing a number of people who have had limited interaction with the opposite gender for all their life before dating, I would agree with you 100%. However, the overwhelming majority of individuals who I know who have abstained from these casual interactions, have if anything more respect for women than anybody else I know. I do not know of a single case (and this is coming from years of learning in yeshiva) of guys who had been so repressed, that they viewed women plainly as sex objects.
10:43 PM
openyoureyes said...
Mr. Shick,
Nobody is asking you to believe my comments. What I am posting is true information, regardless of the fact that I am posting anonymously, or the fact that I am citing anonymous sources. Don't believe me? Do a little prodding yourself, you'll see it's true.
Would it give it any more credibility if I logged in under my blogger name?
6:29 AM
Elster said...
Excellent POst - Nice little indercurrent arguments that follow. All good stuff.
I agree with Jewboy. I think that there is a real need for some interaction between the sexes - which does not necessarily mean there need be yeshina sponsered events, but maybe a little loostening of the reigns when 2 kids say hello to each other motzei shabbos in the pizza store. The taboo is too great and, therefore, it has a negative impact on healthy development of teens.
Now again, not to quote secondary or third hand sources, but we probably all know of a yeshivah boy or BY girl or two who was sneaking around doing things they weren't supposed to. The more you say no to kids like this, the more they are going to want to see what all the "fuss" is about.
And also there is the whole issue of objectification/piece of meat issue. If you never speak to someone of the opposite sex, how can you possibly see that they have feelings, thoughts and the like, as opposed to a means towards sexual gratification and baby making? No offense.
9:48 AM
ytizy said...
elster,
This idea that the more you say no, the more someone will want to find out about it, would apply by pretty much anything else, except for this topic.
Sex is in an instinctual drive. It is out of control. In torah, it is often compared to fire, that if not kept in check, can turn into a blaze.
Kids are not running out and being promiscous, plainly to be rebellious against their parents and teachers who are saying no (though I am not saying this would never play a part in it either). There are hormones flying all over the place with these kids. I don't think a single boy or girl is saying, "well I don't really have a tayva to do this stuff, but now that my mom keeps saying no, I better go check it out." Putting gedarim on children is important. Everyone needs to have bounderies, especially children. Now if you wanted to bring up what a parent or teacher should do after discovering a child has been "messing around", that is a different story. But initially, I think that the casual socializing in friendships and etc. should be discouraged.
Your last point, the "piece of meat" syndrome, just does not exist. I know many think that it should logically, but it just doesn't. I have yet to meet someone who refrained from speaking to girls in high school (and I know hundreds of these people) who now objectifies women because of it. As I said before, if anything, these guys have more respect for women.
9:58 AM
Jewboy said...
Well, there's certainly been some interesting discussion here. I'll try to address a few people as best I can.
Yitz-I think a lot of your points are good. I too haven't been one to subscribe to the theory that girls and boys should talk because later on they need to know how to relate. This is a tough issue and I'm not proposing that we just promote social scenes without second thought. I just think, like Peninah has said, that treating talking to girls like a cardinal sin can be dangerous. I think that kids will have a more healthy mindset if everyone lightens up little. We all know that boys and girls will inevitably fool around, even those from yeshivos and Bais Yaacovs. The question is how to deal with it best. I think that the approach Peninah described her parents having is the best way-let your kids know your expectations, but don't go nuts. Also, I was not only referring to the way things are done in Baltimore in my post, but the Jewish world as a whole.
Peninah-Good job objecting to Yitzi in a respectful manner. I agree that we can't make assumptions about people in the blog world.
Yitzi again-You say that bochurim can diffrentiate between levels of wrongdoing, i.e. talking and doing a lot more. Possibly true, but also realize that bochurim who never speak to girls are afected a lot more than others if a girl suddenly makes conversation with them. I know this from experience in Israel. Whereas someone with experience talking to girls would say, no big deal, a guy who never has contact with girls can get all kinds of strange feelings.
Joe-It's a shame kids were thrown out for these minor infractions. Hopefully they didn't go of the derech. Good points as always.
Openyoureyes-While I'm sure you're teling the truth, it does sound a bit dubious when you quote a whole cahin of anonymoue sources who hear from each other. Perhaps it would be better to say "I heard from someone, etc.
10:21 AM
Joe Schick said...
Yitzy: I don't think we disagree strongly, but do get the sense that our experiences with the charedi world's treatment of this issue has differed. When I was in yeshiva, I heard rebbis say that we should even avoid saying hello to female cousins. Another time, in bais medrash, some guys (probably around 19 years old) were talking to a girl outside yeshiva (admittedly not the smartest thing to do) and a rebbi walked over and admonished them saying - in front of the girl - "if you're talking to girls, couldn't you at least find a good looking one to talk to?"
openyoureyes: Obviously I have no idea whether what you write about is true, but your refusal to name any sources makes it seem unlikely. Furthermore, even if it is true, it is impossible to ascertain why these girls were sexually active, since no circumstances or context are offered.
10:23 AM
Elster said...
Yitzy you say I'm wrong but don't really back it up. I disagree with you re: objectification. it's simply natural to objectify and generalize that which we have no connection or exposure to. It's a fact of life.
12:19 PM
Yitzy said...
Elster,
I can only speak from a male perspective as I have not spent any time in a BY, but the yeshivas that I attended, while stressing the importance of refraining from casual relationships with females, also praised the inherent goodness of a woman. The concept that the female is to be looked at as a princess, and that she has the noble responsibility of raising the next generation of talmidei chachomim was brought up constantly. That a woman is to be tznius and that her true beauty is on the inside were also discussed.
I'm not sure about you, but none of this in my opinion negatively objectifies women. This would not encourage a man to look at a woman as a piece of meat or as merely a means for sexual gratification.
I believe that your point would be true if the schools and yeshivas were to tell boys/girls "stay away from the opposite sex" and then leave at that. However, I know this is not the case.
1:05 PM
Jewboy said...
Yitzi-It is certainly true that not all yeshiva bochurim think of women as objects. Nor do yeshivos teach guys these types of things. To be fair to Elster, I think he still has a good point. The problem is not so much in what yeshivos teach guys as it is what mindsets are created from being so cut off from females. Again, this is certainly not an issue with all yeshiva bochurim, or even most, I would venture to say.
2:05 PM
yitzy said...
Jewboy,
I will admit that there are some yeshiva bochurim who would "objectify" women. However, I don't believe that the "seperation of the sexes" is the cause of this. There are people in every part of society who behave inapproriately with the opposite sex. Looking at the different cultures as a whole, the right winged orthodox Jewish community does NOT have a reputation for promiscuity or chauvanism.
Basically, there are tons of immoral male pigs who frequent bars on a nightly basis solely to hook up with women. These are men who grew up socializing with women their whole lives!
As a former graduate of Ner Israel, I would like you to think of the percentage of high school boys and yeshiva bochurim who you think would objectify/socialize with/hook up with women.
Now take that small percentage and tell me how many of these guys are behaving this way because they have been so separated?
I think both you and I know that this tiny percentage is made up of individuals who would be doing ten times worse, were they in a co-ed environment their whole lives.
In my experience with speaking with Ner Israel students, the ones who had the most limited regular exposure with women, were often the guys who were the most respectful of women.
3:12 PM
Jewboy said...
Yitzi-Valid points. However, I have experienced guys who were totally unreasonable about their demands for looks in a wife. They wanted supermodels and nothing less. I heard of a guy rejecting a girl he actually liked because the girl was "little girl" pretty and not really pretty. Crazy. This phenomenon can be blamed on many things and is certainly not the case with all bochurim. Nut I think that some of this way of thinking may develop from such limited contact with girls. Boys then have a hard time seeing past the mere body.
7:53 PM
Outoftown said...
I don't know about the BY in Baltimore, but at the BY I used to work at, talking to boys was indeed a very serious offense. I have a friend with older daughters (12 and up) who said she was going not going to be able to invite certain friends for Shabbos anymore because they had older sons.
I think the best way for boys and girls to relate to each other would be if their families are invited for shabbos to families with children of the opposite sex, and taught to relate normally. Being able to speak, and not be embarrassed, to memebers of the opposite sex at a Shabbos table, with your parents present, should be a goal that parents have.
Of course, my oldest son in only 4, so I am certainly no expert.
12:14 PM
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