Amazon Deals

Chat room - Wingchat

Testing New Chat Room

frum chat room jewish chat IM Chat

ad

Your Ad Here

Get a Kindle

Total Pageviews

Monday, June 26, 2006

N.J. Town's Orthodox Jews Sign Off Internet at Home

By Jeff Diamant
Religion News Service
Saturday, June 24, 2006; B09

LAKEWOOD, N.J. -- Bruce Rosenberg used to pay his bills online from home. That changed in September, when the rabbis of this town's large Orthodox community told parents of yeshiva students that they no longer could have the Internet in their homes.

Rosenberg, who has two children in religious school, disconnected. Now he treks twice a week to the public library, using its free Internet access to pay bills and sometimes check the news.

"Whoever doesn't have a computer now has to come to the library. Today you need it [the Internet] for everything," said Rosenberg, 26.

He added that he supports the ban, which was designed to protect students from online smut.

He's not alone. While many, if not most, Orthodox Jews here eschewed the Internet -- and television, for that matter -- long before the edict, some with children in Lakewood's 43 yeshivas cut the cord or put a lock on the computer afterward.

Others have quietly defied the ban or, not so quietly, ridiculed it online in anonymous blogs. Community leaders say no one has been subject to the ban's ultimate penalty: expulsion from school for students whose parents have kept the Internet at home for nonbusiness reasons.

Most Orthodox Jews, interviewed recently almost nine months after the edict was issued, said they support the policy.

"It's a great idea. They should do it everywhere," said David Egert, an emergency medical technician.

He also said he frequents the library more often since he disconnected the Internet last fall, after the rabbis' declaration.

"I used to use the Internet once a day for research. I would check medical stuff online. Now I either find it in the library or I don't find it," he said.

The number of people using free Internet access at Lakewood's public library in May was 8,248, compared with 5,858 the previous May, before the edict, library officials said. Orthodox Jews appear to be part of the increase, said Saran Lewis, head of the reference department.

Rabbis instituted the Internet ban because of concerns not only about pornography and sexual predators in online chat rooms, but also about images of women dressed immodestly, which they feared would distract those who are devoted to religious study.

The ban is not absolute. The policy allows rabbis to approve exceptions for parents who need the Internet or e-mail-only services for a home business, as long as they lock computers away from children.

Around town, there are plans to open a public Internet center in an office building for online shopping. And the main yeshiva, which teaches adults and is among the most prestigious yeshivas in the world, has tightened Internet rules for its students.

At the same time, some determined Jewish teenagers have become part of the public library's Web crowd. One 16-year-old yeshiva student, who would not give his name, said he occasionally accesses the Internet there to check eBay and baseball news.

A Lakewood adult, who also would not give his name because he said he feared retribution, said the religious leaders have gone too far. He said he lets his children, yeshiva students, use the Internet at home, although he closely monitors and restricts their use.

He said the rabbis should trust parents to run their homes and should rescind the expulsion policy.

"Nobody wants to be told how to run their life," the man said. "You don't want someone telling you, 'Put this in this part of the house,' 'Take this out of your house,' and, 'If you don't, then your kid gets thrown out of school.' "

The rabbis realize they will never get 100 percent compliance and do not intend to sniff out users, said Rabbi Moshe Weisberg, who runs a social services agency and, like other Lakewood rabbis, has long stressed the dangers of the Internet.

"There'll always be a small fringe that will be there no matter what anybody tries to do," he said. "We're very, very concerned about the mainstream and we're happy to report it has not spilled over into that area."

Lakewood's policy, while similar to those in some Orthodox communities in Israel, is unusual, if not unique, in the United States, even among Orthodox Jews.

The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, for example, has a Web site with interactive functions to help viewers find a synagogue, learn when to light candles, or find out about singles events. The Hasidic movement Chabad-Lubavitch has an active Internet presence. And a popular Talmud study program called Daf Yomi has an Internet site that helps people find study groups.

Of course, to those in Lakewood who have never been online, the Internet remains a mystery.

"The reason we don't do Internet is because of the bad effect it might have on our children. We find it's not worth the gain," said Chaim Rapport, who then paraphrased a Talmudic saying: "We all have evil inclination. Since it's easy to find evil, then we should stop as far away as we can from it."

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

Monday, June 19, 2006

Forbidden Mixtures

I've been wanting to talk about a topic for some time that it is considered controversial in our Orthodox world. I have hesitated due to the fact that I feel inadequate to really address it properly. In addition, I don't have a conclusion-just thoughts. It's my opinion that the issue of interaction between young men and women needs to be a reevaluted somewhat in the Jewish world. Anyone who's familiar with the way yeshiva and Bais Yaacov education works knows that young men and women are taught that interacting with the opposite sex is basically the ultimate sin. In a lot of communities, a boy talking to a girl is considered a taboo of epic proportions. Now, before all you dissenting commenters out there (You know who you are) start vilifying me for being a charedi basher again, let me explain. I am not one of those who argues that boys and girls should be encouraged to talk and hang out together. In fact, I think that usually it is better for boys and girls to be educated separately. I went to a coed school, and as one might imagine, there was a high rate of physical interaction. People did things that they later regretted and, I imagine, had a hard time telling their spouses about. It's fine with me if my children don't have a lot of experience with the opposite sex before marriage. I can testify that it's possible to never have had a serious relationship with someone of the opposite sex and still have a perfectly normal, happy relationship with one's spouse.

And yet...let me tell a little story. A friend of mine who lives in a smaller community was once telling me one reason why she likes living in a smaller Jewish community as opposed to Baltimore. She said that in Baltimore, if her preteen daughter would so much as look at a boy she would be disciplined by her school. As opposed to the smaller place she lived in, where although her daughter was not encouraged to be friends with boys, if she ever had the slightest interaction with them she wouldn't be treated as if she was going off the derech. Everyone knows that teenagers have hormones going wild and are very attracted to the opposite sex. To so unnaturally suppress these instincts is not a completely healthy thing, in my view. I had another conversation with some friends in which we discussed how girls in Bais Yaacovs are taught for so many years that, essentially, boys are bad and should be avoided at all costs. Then, the girls goes to seminary, comes back at 19, and, hey presto, she's ready to date. Is anything wrong with that picture? Can it be expected that normal interaction with a date and eventually a spouse will occur after so many years of suppressing a person's most natural instincts? A girl, or really even a boy as well, who buys into the theory that the opposite sex is bad, will often have a hard time coping with the new reality that they are now supposed to talk to the very people who have been taboos for them for so long.

So, you'll ask, I'm encouraging interaction between boys and girls? I hold that we should have social gatherings for yeshiva guys and girls? No, not really. I can't in any kind of honesty say that those things would be positive, at least for high school age kids. So I don't have a solution. But I do feel that the overwhelming emphasis on separation has become a somewhat negative thing. At some point, we have to teach our children how to interact with the opposite sex in a normal, healthy manner. Yeshiva guys should be able to go to a Shabbos meal and not ignore any woman at the table like she's not there. They should be able to offer to help clear the table and thank the hostess for the meal. If two teenagers of the opposite sex have the slightest conversation, they should not be made to feel that they have done a horrible sin and are on the slippery slope to not being frum. The total suppression of interaction is unhealthy perhaps even moreso for boys, who tend to view women as merely bodies and sex objects if they are so completely cut off from them. Again, the solution is not easy. I know that the rabbis and principals are doing their best for the spiritual health of their students. I think there has to be a loosening of the screws. Students should realize that they are expected to not have a lot of interaction with the opposite sex, but not feel that their teacher or parents will rip them apart if they do. I'm idealistic as always, but that's just me.

posted by Jewboy at 8:57 PM
31 Comments:

Joe Schick said...

I agree with your sentiments. However, it is probably impossible to find the right balance. On one hand, the halacha is very strict on these matters. On the other hand, boys and girls have to learn to interact in a normal manner. Encouraging normal interaction will benefit some, but also inevitably result in some other people acting in non-halachic ways.

Of course you're right that teens in the charedi world should be cut a lot more slack in this area.

Is your opposition to co-ed schools particular to high school, or for elementary school students too?
9:42 PM
bellanny said...

it is very hard to find a balance. i went to all girls schools until i got to college. i think that seperate schools for elementary and high schools is much better because there is a lot less pressure when in class and learning.

but i think going to a co-ed college is good because it allows for helathy interaction. sure there will always be people who take things too afr, but that goes for anything. even YU, which has seperate campuses and classes, still encourages interaction and mixed events. personally, i wish they would have a few more mixed classes beacuse i think in college guys should be able to see that women can stand up with the best of them.
10:13 PM
nircgrad said...

No bashing......I promise.

However that was an extremely contradictory post. On the one hand you wouldn't want your children interacting with members of the opposite sex, but you lament the schools teaching separation. All the school is doing is ensuring that your kid doesn't interact.

I agree that dating is difficult after all those years of separation, but if both sides are coming from the same background, there are no expectations that conversation will flow easily.

By the way, just to correct one fallacy, I don't believe Bais Yaakov will discipline a girl for talking to boys.
9:22 AM
peninah said...

I don't think the post was contracitory at all. I don't think JewBoy was saying that he "doesn't want his kids intereacting with the opposite sex." If I understand it correctly, I think that he was saying that he would not actively encourage them to do so.

I think this is a great discussion point. You are correct about the feelings towards the opposite sex that get carried over into dating and marriage. It is quite scary. On top of that, often, as soon as a boy and start dating they are so overcome with the excitement of finally being able to talk and interact with someone of the opposite sex, that often they end up marrying the first person they date whether that person be a suitable match for them.

I think another problem that you didn't quite touch upon is the fact that the schools etc. make the slightest of interaction between boys and girls so taboo that these kids often equate talking to the opposite sex with doing a whole lot more. I can't think of a specific example of this, but on the same token, I remember hearing that a well known Rabbi in Baltimore was once walking by a house on shabbos and there was a boy sitting outside smoking. When the Rabbi asked the boy why he was doing this, the boy answered, "well, my father told me I wasn't frum because I stopped wearing my hat so I figured that I could smoke on shabbos now."

I think that parents need to know what is going on with their children. Like it or not, SOME kids will want to interact with the opposite sex. I am not saying that we shouldl give them cart blanche to do so in any place or manner, but I do think if we put restrictions on them they are going to find ways of doing it anyway. I would much rather know what my children are doing than have them sneaking off to REALLY get into trouble.

I have been up since too early so I don't think this comment is as articulate as I would want it to be, so I apologize.
9:55 AM
nircgrad said...

I just want to add that I don't ever remember hearing a shmuess in High School about talking to girls, it was understood that it's wrong. I was definitely never taught to ignore girls.

I think this is really an issue that we agree on, what is important is to find a happy medium. I intend to teach my children not to talk to members of the opposite sex, but not to ignore them either.
10:07 AM
Greg said...

If I could paraphrase: the collective Orthodox Jewish world needs an enema.
11:39 AM
Greg said...

If I could paraphrase: the collective Orthodox Jewish world needs an enema.
11:49 AM
Jewboy said...

Joe-You're right, it is a very difficult issue. I was trying to convey some of that difficulty. In terms of coed schools, my opinions are not iron clad. Different things for different types of people are often necessary. Although a good deal of inappropriate interaction went on at my school, the types of kids who attended my school probably would not have gone to a single sex school, and would have been involved with girls anyway. For run of the mill frum kids, however, I think single sex schools are usually better. For elementary schools I don't think of it as such a big deal. My elementary school, which is now pretty right wing, was mixed through fifth grade when I was there. Perhaps the fact that it was mixed helped there be normal interaction later, I don't know.

Bellany-It's certainly good for colega age guys and girls to be able to interact normally. If a guy never says a word to a girl and then starts working with women, it could be awkward.

Nirgrad-Rather than being "extremely contradictory", I was clearly presenting two sides to the issue. Peninah was correct that I would not actively encourage my kids to interact, yet if they did I would not act as if the world came to an end.
In terms of the Bais Yaacov disclipining a girl ,my story did have slight exaggerations. I think you got the point, however. I knew of a case in which a boy was friends with a girl in high school, and it was a little more than just friends. The girl's school went nuts, making her sign contracts not to meet him and all kinds of crazy stuff like that. Of course it didn't accomplish what they wanted it to, so what was the point?

Peninah-You seem to have grasped the heart of my post best of anyone so far. You also added some good points. The phenomenon of guys marrying their first girl or vice versa because they are not used to the experience is a fascinating one, and one that I believe I have seen amongst people I know. One person who I believe suffered from this problem had a broken engagement because of it.
Your hat story is one I tried to allude to when I talked about how kids will think they are headed towards not being frum if they talk to the opposite sex. This kind of thing is a problem with kids in many areas nowadays.
11:50 AM
Yitzy said...

People,

Not to be disrespectful, but many of the statements that have been made in this post are incorrect and in my belief, rather naive.

I can only speak from my experience with the Baltimore community, but being that it was mentioned a number of times here, I think my points will be relevent.

Firstly, "Nircgrad" is correct in his assessment that BY does not "all out punish" girls who are hanging out with boys. I know that the school discourages these interactions, but they have had enough experience with it over the years, not to overreact.

When I was in high school, I was hanging out with a number of girls in Kosher Bite when one of the prominent Rabbis of the school walked in. The girls saw him yet didn't even flinch. When I asked if they would get in trouble for being with me, the girls responded by saying that they might get spoken to by the Rabbi, but nothing would really happen. So this belief that "all hell breaks loose" if boys and girls are caught interacting in Baltimore, is just false. In fact, for a city with such a large Jewish community, Baltimore seems to have an extremely relaxed approach to this subject, when compared with other cities.

Peninah- many of your statements show that you have a limited amount of experience with a "seperated" life-style.

Many of my friends who had all kinds of relationships with girls while in high school and even beyond, married the first girl they dated when set up on a shidduch. Many of my friends who had extremely limited interaction with girls before dating, have been dating for years and are still not married. The belief that a person will marry the first guy/girl they go out with because they are "so excited" by the novelty of it is just wrong.

There is this ridiculous belief in some circles that if a guy and girl don't interact on a regular basis while in the teenage years, the guy or girl will not know how to talk to the other when the time comes to date/marry/work/etc.

Let me ask you, if I know that when the time comes, I will have a number of African American coworkers at my job who come from a culture much different than mine, should I make sure to have as much interaction with them before I enter the workforce, so that I know how to speak to them when the time comes?

With certain things, Hashem has given us the ability to figure out with a limited amount of experience. After a few weeks on my job, I will be more sensitive to the differences between me and my african american coworkers. Ok, maybe I will make an insensitive statement, but I will learn from my mistakes and be ready for the next time. After a couple of dates, the guy or girl will figure it out too. My proof? The fact that a large number of my friends who had little to no social interaction with members of the opposite sex as teens, are happily married now.

In my mind, you are risking the potential of so many harms that can come out of a juvenile boy/girl relationship for what purpose?

So..I believe that it is important for parents to instill in their children a complete respect for the opposite sex. I agree with Jewboy that a conversation at a shabbos table is a safe, healthy way to have a bit of interaction with the opposite sex, without anything getting out of hand.

But some who believe that our children are "better off" by having more interaction with the opposite sex, is either oblivious to or is ignoring the number of boys and girls who have lost their virginity from something that only started out as a "small platonic friendship."
3:10 PM
peninah said...

Yitzi- I haven't seen you post on this blog before so I am assuming you are a new reader or you have recently "delurked". The point of this comment is not going to be to respond to your comments (although I may do that later), rather, I just want to offer some advice to you. Especially when commenting here (assuming JewBoy doesn't mind).
Please don't make assumptions about any of the commenters on this blog based on a few sentences or paragraphs that you might have read by them. It is a problem when people do this in the limited world of blogging, but it represents and even greater problem that we have in the real world. For the most part, the people who post on this blog are thinking individuals who want to do what is best for themselves and their families in the realm of Judaism (as I am sure you are as well). They usually comment with well thought-out and intelligent ideas. I just want you to realize this before you start making assumptions about the people who read this blog.

If you are wondering what sparked this diatribe, it is the assumption you made about me. I definitely do not have a limited amount of experience with a "separated lifstyle" I am a Bais Yaakov graduate who grew up in a frum yet accepting home. I did have interactions with boys growing up, but they were always under the guidance and with the knowledge of my parents (and no my parents are not liberal modern orthodox jews who encouraged their kids to socialize with the opposite sex).

Honestly, I don't think my parents would have chosen for their kids to interact with the opposite sex. It is definitely easier not to have to deal with that kind of stuff when your kids are teenagers. My parents had a theory though. They raised us with a rope. They'd let their children out with the rope, always keeping an eye, and a handle on the rope and always making sure their children knew they were connected to the rope. If it were ever needed, they would exercise their rights to pull their children back in with that rope.

I have to say, this was a great way to be raised. There was always open communication in my home, especially when it came to the opposite sex. I really believe that that is one of the reasons I didn't do anything bad while growing up. I think if my parents had forbade me or my sibling from interacting with the opposite sex, it would have had the opposite affect.

I know there have been cases of teenagers losing their virgity within the frum community. But this slippery slope argument that platonic relationships turn into kids losing their virginity seems misplaced. I think this is the point the JewBoy was trying to make originally. You can't equate boys and girls talking to eachother to them losing their virginity. It sends an unbelievably confusing message to these kids that the two are comperable. In the scheme of things, they definitely are not.
4:21 PM
nircgrad said...

Yitzy,

That was an extremely well thought out post, although you are incorrect about Peninah's background.

Peninah,

I don't think Yitzy meant anything against you with his post, though he clearly got your goat. He was just articulating that a permissive atitude to social interaction with members of the opposite sex can lead to problems. Knowing your father pretty well I know that to not be true with you.
4:46 PM
Yitzy said...

Peninah,

I'm sorry if my words offended you. That was not my intention. Thank you for explaining what you did in such a respectful tone. I too am an open-minded thinking individual. My statement about your lack of exposure to the "more seperated" community was inapproriate.

The truth is though, I found it a bit insulting for you to generalize an entire culture of yeshiva bochurim who have made the choice to refrain from casual social interaction with the opposite sex, something which I believe should be commended, as being a bunch of non-thinking individuals who will probably marry the first girl they date out of the excitement of socializing for the first.

The same way that it would be wrong and close-minded of me to make general statements about the modern orthodox community, the same is true of the modern to the more right winged.

Also, I felt that your statements about the frummer schools making such a big deal about boys and girls interacting was a bit too generalized as well.

If I were to say, "It is horrible that a school like Rambam puts the importance of revering Ben Gurion and Hertzel above Torah Study", you would say that though Rambam impresses an ahava for Israel, my statement is incorrect.

So too by the more right winged schools, there is obviously a stress placed on the importance of refraining from socialization with opposite gender, however, I don't think it is done in an overreacting kind of way.

In regards to your parenting statements, I believe that the approach your parents exhibited was a healthy one. However, it has nothing to do with this notion that "boys and girls SHOULD interact at an early age."

I am obviously not naive enough to believe that all the boys and girls who socialize in high school will lose their virginity and in no way am I equating the two. I socialized with girls and still managed to stay shomer negiah. I also agree that a parent who makes their child believe that speaking with a boy and losing ones virginity are similar, needs some serious parenting classes. However, I do know for a fact that one of the more modern orthodox girls schools in the local area did indeed have at least 6 girls lose their virginity before graduating high school. This number was from one class. The class of my graduating year. The school is not an unusually large school either. It does indeed happen.

My point is, lets just say for a second that great parenting will substantially limit the chance that a child will go this far. I think we both know that this is no gaurantee but lets assume this is the case for a second. My question is, what purpose does the socializing serve? Is it so a child is more adept at speaking with opposite sex when the time comes to date? Don't we have the confidence in our children to believe that they have decent enough social skills to manage well enough when the time comes? Why take a risk? That is my point.

I see great potential harmful risk on one side, and very little positive outcomes on the other. To me its a no brainer.
4:53 PM
Joe Schick said...

Regarding "the number of boys and girls who have lost their virginity from something that only started out as a "small platonic friendship":

The reality is that this could happen because parents and schools are too strict, forbidding even limited social interaction, so that "rebellious" teens view a platonic friendship is "bad" enough and therefore end up doing much more.

It could also happen because parents and schools are too tolerant, allowing more than limited social interaction, which, given teens' hormones, could also end up result in this kind of activity.

As stated above, it is probably impossible to find the right balance. Each person is different and needs to be treated differently.

As for charedi schools treatment of those who hang out with the opposite sex, in the charedi high school that I attended, it was quite severe. I guess Brooklyn schools are more extreme in this regard than Baltmore schools.
4:56 PM
Yitzy said...

Joe,

Though I agree that anything is possible anywhere, I think it is pretty much understood that the more exposure you have to something, the more chance something else will follow.

The gemara describes the situation with this tayva as being, "marvayah rav, masbiah saveah". The more you feed it, the more it needs, the more you refrain, the more satisfied.

I don't think there are many out there who would think, "hey, I spoke with a girl today, might as well go all the way." It's not like a guy who slept through shachris one day and gets a musser shmooze for it, is going to eat pork tomorrow. No matter how one is brought up, people understand that there are different levels of wrong.

The child who says, "my parents yelled at me for having a boyfriend so I figured I might as well sleep with him" is lying to herself.

Though there are exceptions, generally, the less exposure one has to an activity, the less chance they will engage in it.
5:11 PM
Joe Schick said...

"Though there are exceptions, generally, the less exposure one has to an activity, the less chance they will engage in it."

For the most part, I agree. However, if, say, a kid is thrown out of school for hanging out with a member of the opposite gender, I do think there's an increased risk that they will rebel further and engage in ant-halachic behavior.

While this may not be a concern in Baltimore, in the charedi high school I attended, a number of boys were expelled after 11th grade, most for rather minor infractions.
5:32 PM
yitzy said...

Joe,

Yes, I agree with you. When a child is expelled, there is a slim to no chance that he or she will suddenly change his or her ways.

I'm not talking about the school responding in that way.

I am only disagreeing with the belief of those "that it is health for our young boys and girls to socialize so they will know how to interact with the general world."
6:21 PM
Joe Schick said...

"I am only disagreeing with the belief of those 'that it is health for our young boys and girls to socialize so they will know how to interact with the general world.'"

Socializing is different from (limited) interaction. Without the latter, I tend to agree with Jewboy that many teens will view members of the opposite gender as sexual objects.
6:33 PM
Openyoureyes said...

I do not have much to say on the topic, but a very reputable source (which will remain anonymous) heard first-hand from a local shul Rav (who will also remain anonymous) that in a recent graduating class of a certain right-wing single sex female school there were between 7-9 ABORTIONS (not girls losing virginity - ABORTIONS). I realize that this statement is a bit controversial and will not be easily-taken, but the sources will remain anonymous.
7:14 PM
Joe Schick said...

I do not have much to say on the topic, but a very reputable source (which will remain anonymous) heard first-hand from a local shul Rav (who will also remain anonymous) that in a recent graduating class of a certain right-wing single sex male school there were between 7-9 boys smoking MARIJUANA (not smoking cigarettes - MARIJUANA). I realize that this statement is a bit controversial and will not be easily-taken, but the sources will remain anonymous.


Seriously, please don't anonymously post information from a second anonymous source, heard "first-hand" from a third anonymous source, about something relating to "7-9" additionally anonymous people.
9:12 PM
yitzy said...

"Socializing is different from (limited) interaction. Without the latter, I tend to agree with Jewboy that many teens will view members of the opposite gender as sexual objects. "

Joe,

Honestly, if I didn't have first hand experience, knowing a number of people who have had limited interaction with the opposite gender for all their life before dating, I would agree with you 100%. However, the overwhelming majority of individuals who I know who have abstained from these casual interactions, have if anything more respect for women than anybody else I know. I do not know of a single case (and this is coming from years of learning in yeshiva) of guys who had been so repressed, that they viewed women plainly as sex objects.
10:43 PM
openyoureyes said...

Mr. Shick,

Nobody is asking you to believe my comments. What I am posting is true information, regardless of the fact that I am posting anonymously, or the fact that I am citing anonymous sources. Don't believe me? Do a little prodding yourself, you'll see it's true.

Would it give it any more credibility if I logged in under my blogger name?
6:29 AM
Elster said...

Excellent POst - Nice little indercurrent arguments that follow. All good stuff.

I agree with Jewboy. I think that there is a real need for some interaction between the sexes - which does not necessarily mean there need be yeshina sponsered events, but maybe a little loostening of the reigns when 2 kids say hello to each other motzei shabbos in the pizza store. The taboo is too great and, therefore, it has a negative impact on healthy development of teens.

Now again, not to quote secondary or third hand sources, but we probably all know of a yeshivah boy or BY girl or two who was sneaking around doing things they weren't supposed to. The more you say no to kids like this, the more they are going to want to see what all the "fuss" is about.

And also there is the whole issue of objectification/piece of meat issue. If you never speak to someone of the opposite sex, how can you possibly see that they have feelings, thoughts and the like, as opposed to a means towards sexual gratification and baby making? No offense.
9:48 AM
ytizy said...

elster,

This idea that the more you say no, the more someone will want to find out about it, would apply by pretty much anything else, except for this topic.

Sex is in an instinctual drive. It is out of control. In torah, it is often compared to fire, that if not kept in check, can turn into a blaze.

Kids are not running out and being promiscous, plainly to be rebellious against their parents and teachers who are saying no (though I am not saying this would never play a part in it either). There are hormones flying all over the place with these kids. I don't think a single boy or girl is saying, "well I don't really have a tayva to do this stuff, but now that my mom keeps saying no, I better go check it out." Putting gedarim on children is important. Everyone needs to have bounderies, especially children. Now if you wanted to bring up what a parent or teacher should do after discovering a child has been "messing around", that is a different story. But initially, I think that the casual socializing in friendships and etc. should be discouraged.

Your last point, the "piece of meat" syndrome, just does not exist. I know many think that it should logically, but it just doesn't. I have yet to meet someone who refrained from speaking to girls in high school (and I know hundreds of these people) who now objectifies women because of it. As I said before, if anything, these guys have more respect for women.
9:58 AM
Jewboy said...

Well, there's certainly been some interesting discussion here. I'll try to address a few people as best I can.

Yitz-I think a lot of your points are good. I too haven't been one to subscribe to the theory that girls and boys should talk because later on they need to know how to relate. This is a tough issue and I'm not proposing that we just promote social scenes without second thought. I just think, like Peninah has said, that treating talking to girls like a cardinal sin can be dangerous. I think that kids will have a more healthy mindset if everyone lightens up little. We all know that boys and girls will inevitably fool around, even those from yeshivos and Bais Yaacovs. The question is how to deal with it best. I think that the approach Peninah described her parents having is the best way-let your kids know your expectations, but don't go nuts. Also, I was not only referring to the way things are done in Baltimore in my post, but the Jewish world as a whole.

Peninah-Good job objecting to Yitzi in a respectful manner. I agree that we can't make assumptions about people in the blog world.

Yitzi again-You say that bochurim can diffrentiate between levels of wrongdoing, i.e. talking and doing a lot more. Possibly true, but also realize that bochurim who never speak to girls are afected a lot more than others if a girl suddenly makes conversation with them. I know this from experience in Israel. Whereas someone with experience talking to girls would say, no big deal, a guy who never has contact with girls can get all kinds of strange feelings.

Joe-It's a shame kids were thrown out for these minor infractions. Hopefully they didn't go of the derech. Good points as always.

Openyoureyes-While I'm sure you're teling the truth, it does sound a bit dubious when you quote a whole cahin of anonymoue sources who hear from each other. Perhaps it would be better to say "I heard from someone, etc.
10:21 AM
Joe Schick said...

Yitzy: I don't think we disagree strongly, but do get the sense that our experiences with the charedi world's treatment of this issue has differed. When I was in yeshiva, I heard rebbis say that we should even avoid saying hello to female cousins. Another time, in bais medrash, some guys (probably around 19 years old) were talking to a girl outside yeshiva (admittedly not the smartest thing to do) and a rebbi walked over and admonished them saying - in front of the girl - "if you're talking to girls, couldn't you at least find a good looking one to talk to?"

openyoureyes: Obviously I have no idea whether what you write about is true, but your refusal to name any sources makes it seem unlikely. Furthermore, even if it is true, it is impossible to ascertain why these girls were sexually active, since no circumstances or context are offered.
10:23 AM
Elster said...

Yitzy you say I'm wrong but don't really back it up. I disagree with you re: objectification. it's simply natural to objectify and generalize that which we have no connection or exposure to. It's a fact of life.
12:19 PM
Yitzy said...

Elster,

I can only speak from a male perspective as I have not spent any time in a BY, but the yeshivas that I attended, while stressing the importance of refraining from casual relationships with females, also praised the inherent goodness of a woman. The concept that the female is to be looked at as a princess, and that she has the noble responsibility of raising the next generation of talmidei chachomim was brought up constantly. That a woman is to be tznius and that her true beauty is on the inside were also discussed.

I'm not sure about you, but none of this in my opinion negatively objectifies women. This would not encourage a man to look at a woman as a piece of meat or as merely a means for sexual gratification.

I believe that your point would be true if the schools and yeshivas were to tell boys/girls "stay away from the opposite sex" and then leave at that. However, I know this is not the case.
1:05 PM
Jewboy said...

Yitzi-It is certainly true that not all yeshiva bochurim think of women as objects. Nor do yeshivos teach guys these types of things. To be fair to Elster, I think he still has a good point. The problem is not so much in what yeshivos teach guys as it is what mindsets are created from being so cut off from females. Again, this is certainly not an issue with all yeshiva bochurim, or even most, I would venture to say.
2:05 PM
yitzy said...

Jewboy,

I will admit that there are some yeshiva bochurim who would "objectify" women. However, I don't believe that the "seperation of the sexes" is the cause of this. There are people in every part of society who behave inapproriately with the opposite sex. Looking at the different cultures as a whole, the right winged orthodox Jewish community does NOT have a reputation for promiscuity or chauvanism.

Basically, there are tons of immoral male pigs who frequent bars on a nightly basis solely to hook up with women. These are men who grew up socializing with women their whole lives!

As a former graduate of Ner Israel, I would like you to think of the percentage of high school boys and yeshiva bochurim who you think would objectify/socialize with/hook up with women.

Now take that small percentage and tell me how many of these guys are behaving this way because they have been so separated?

I think both you and I know that this tiny percentage is made up of individuals who would be doing ten times worse, were they in a co-ed environment their whole lives.

In my experience with speaking with Ner Israel students, the ones who had the most limited regular exposure with women, were often the guys who were the most respectful of women.
3:12 PM
Jewboy said...

Yitzi-Valid points. However, I have experienced guys who were totally unreasonable about their demands for looks in a wife. They wanted supermodels and nothing less. I heard of a guy rejecting a girl he actually liked because the girl was "little girl" pretty and not really pretty. Crazy. This phenomenon can be blamed on many things and is certainly not the case with all bochurim. Nut I think that some of this way of thinking may develop from such limited contact with girls. Boys then have a hard time seeing past the mere body.
7:53 PM
Outoftown said...

I don't know about the BY in Baltimore, but at the BY I used to work at, talking to boys was indeed a very serious offense. I have a friend with older daughters (12 and up) who said she was going not going to be able to invite certain friends for Shabbos anymore because they had older sons.

I think the best way for boys and girls to relate to each other would be if their families are invited for shabbos to families with children of the opposite sex, and taught to relate normally. Being able to speak, and not be embarrassed, to memebers of the opposite sex at a Shabbos table, with your parents present, should be a goal that parents have.

Of course, my oldest son in only 4, so I am certainly no expert.
12:14 PM

Monday, June 05, 2006

Ethnographic look at Yeshiva students from 1996 (long)

Yeshivot (plural for yeshiva) are rather peculiar institutions in 20th century America. These important bastions of an era gone by are surprisingly vibrant, an accurate reflection of the recent orthodox Jewish rejuvenation in this country and Israel. They are passionate about not allowing the Holocaust to destroy what was once the spiritual and intellectual life source in the shtetls of Europe. They are Orthodox Judaism as it is meant to be executed, with emphasis placed on Jewish law and ancient tradition. Amazingly self contained, these places of higher learning are far removed from the society in which they coexist. For those unaccustomed to the ins and outs, a visit is a severe culture shock, leaving many wondering if in fact they can believe what they had just witnessed.

These all male schools are rigorous, with grueling 15 hour a day schedules. It is most interesting to observe how these young men spend their limited spare time. The students come from all different backgrounds from all around the country and therefore, there are some distinct pastimes. All, however, are approved hobbies, neither violating Jewish law, tradition or the particular world view of the institution s rabbis.

Although it would be almost imperceivable for an outsider, many yeshivot have different philosophies regarding what is permitted and what is not. On a visit to one yeshiva one may find talmidim (students at a religious school) reading books and popular magazines, while a visit to another may leave one with the impression that such pursuit is not only a waste of time, but a serious violation of Jewish law.
Attitudes towards universities follows a similar pattern. While one yeshiva may preach that one should prefer death rather than attend a secular school, others may allow their students to attend openly with full permission. However, it is important to understand that even according to most yeshivot that allow their students to attend university, it is considered a necessary evil and is only allowed as a secondary pursuit, always remaining far behind their religious studies in significance. Young men are encouraged to remain in yeshiva for as long as they are in school, to help minimize the negative and dangerous affects their secular schooling may have on themselves and their religious observance.
The objective of my study was to determine how the student subculture of yeshiva college students, who come from an atmosphere which is at very best skeptical about the overall benefits and ramifications of college attendance, view their college experience. Do yeshiva college students consider themselves a part of the larger culture of college students?

As Astin claims (as quoted in Whitt 1996) "students peer groups are the single most potent source on influence and growth and development during the undergraduate years." Are yeshiva college students socialized by peer groups at their universities, or only by their peers at yeshiva? What affect, if any, does college attendance have on them?

For the purposes of this study, student subculture is defined as
Smaller, distinctive groups within the dominant student culture that are held together by a persistent interaction and a common allegiance to certain values, beliefs rituals and practices and codes of conduct.

Culture will be defined according to Tiereney (1988)
The collective, mutually shaping patterns of norms, values, practices, beliefs and assumptions that guide the behavior of individuals and groups (1988 pp. 12-13).


Socialization will be defined as
The process by which people begin to adopt the perspectives of the group with which they wish to affiliate. (Kuh, Hall 1992 p.11)

Data was gathered from personal interviews with ten yeshiva college students currently enrolled in dual programs at three different yeshivot nationwide between the beginning of October and the end of November, 1996. All three yeshivot had open policies allowing their students to attend college part time while remaining fully enrolled in the yeshiva's religious program. However, yeshiva college students remained a minority at each institution, as the majority of yeshiva students focused on their religious studies exclusively. Permission was received from Rabbi Peretz Zachai and Rabbi Jerold Eisenberg to conduct research at their institutions in October of 1996. As per request, a copy of the complete study will be made available to Rabbi Zachai.

The students themselves were all Caucasian, between the ages of 18 and 22. Their college and yeshiva experience varied greatly. However, all students were in at least their second year of yeshiva and first year of college.
Survey questions queried students feelings regarding their yeshiva and university's perspective on a number of selected issues, as well as their own personal feelings. Results of the study will be presented using direct quotations and examples from the different students interviewed. As requested, pseudonyms will be used, and no direct link between any particular student and his institution will be made.
One major theme was easily apparent throughout my research. Yeshiva college students view themselves as yeshiva students who happen to be in college. The emphasis was unilaterally placed on yeshiva, with college merely serving as a vehicle to an end, that end being becoming self sufficient and self supportive.
After responding to questions regarding their yeshiva and their college's perspective on college attendance, six of the ten interviewees responded to questions about their personal beliefs by simply saying "the same" without reference to which of the two distinct institutional perspectives they just described they agreed with. Upon further prodding each one clarified that he meant "the same as my yeshiva." No further information was offered, as it appeared that these students felt that whatever it was their yeshiva espoused was more than a sufficient answer for them as well. What s more, it appears that they felt it obvious that when they said the same that they were referring to the yeshiva. When asked to clarify, several laughed, as if to imply that the answer was obvious. Why would anyone think that they could be referring to anything but their yeshiva?
There was quite a bit of agreement as to what role the students felt their yeshiva believed college should play. All ten students responded that it was for a "parnassa (livelihood)" and nothing more. Isaac said, "One should not take any courses he does not need", just the minimum required to earn his degree and get the job he is looking for. Jacob, clearly the most contemplative and thoughtful of all interviewees, added that college actually helps individuals in their religious studies, as "people will have peace of mind by going to college to learn how to make a living. Therefore they will be able to learn (Jewish studies) better. It can help compliment rabbinics, so therefore in my mind going to college helps me serve G-d better." In other words, college is a vehicle to an end (money), which when attained, allows one to better serve G-d through his studies and practices without unnecessary interruptions. Furthermore, it may provide an aspiring rabbi with important skills that allows him to function better in a religious leadership role in a secular society. Jacob also mentioned that he had just been thinking about the very same questions over the last few days, trying to sort out his beliefs, as well as those of his yeshiva.

However, college attendance is not necessarily an appropriate first option. It should only be pursued after a number of years in yeshiva (nine of the ten students had been in yeshiva for several years more than they had been in college) and then, only as Simon put it, for "somebody who is not necessarily going into chinuch (Jewish education and teaching)." If, however, chinuch is an option, clearly most of the students, including Simon, believed that college attendance was not recommended.

Even Abraham, who did say that he agreed with his university's perspective regarding attendance (that everyone secular or religious should attend college), believed that the purpose of college attendance, according to both his university and his yeshiva was, "to go to grad school." When asked why that was important, he responded "You can earn more money that way" Evidently, he believes that the perspective of his yeshiva regarding the purpose of a university was the standard belief employed in the halls of his university as well.

Most students, however, were able to give more standard replies to questions about their university's perspective. All ten responded that their university believed that "everyone...that can meet the academic requirements" should at least have the opportunity to attend college. Most felt that college attendance was an important thing within the non Jewish community and should be encouraged whenever possible.
All the students, with the exception of Abraham, felt that their university had high, lofty goals in mind in the furtherance of the education of their students. As Rueben said, college helps them "gain an education, and provide(s) them with the tools for life." Or, as Simon said, To give people a broad perspective allowing them to explore different cultures. And, of course, the standard reply was given by four students, universities are there to produce well rounded individuals.
Two other students also mentioned earning money and getting a job as important, but placed that as a lower priority on the college's agenda.
It is very interesting that these students were able to produce such in depth and complete answers to questions regarding their university's perspective, while only one of them would admit to actually believing them to be true. Simon's response was most telling. After describing a college's purpose as "teaching students how to think, and helping them grow up through the college experience", he then remarked, "College is the biggest farce in America." He believed that colleges can claim whatever they will, but they accomplish nothing productive besides providing people with the education necessary to earn a degree, and then a job within a particular field.

None of the interviewees had ever participated in an extra curricular activity. Several were not even aware that such programs existed on their campuses. Simon remarked, "No (I have never participated) thank G-d! They are a complete waste of time. They are completely menuval (disgusting, appealing to base instincts) but are disguised with good intentions." Becoming a well rounded individual does not justify "all the other garbage that comes with it" in Simon's eyes. These activities have one goal in mind, and that is to allow students to do as they please, act in an immoral manner with full university sanction. All the interviewees made it abundantly clear that for them there was no distinction between regular university activities and activities sponsored by on campus Jewish social organizations such as Hillel.

Although Simon was the only student to openly criticize extra curricular activities, it was clear that none of the students considered them an appropriate way to spend their time. Their roles as college students was to go to class, take notes and tests and go back to their yeshiva.

Academic activities followed a similar pattern. Most students did not know that such programs existed. Jacob said that he "uses the computers. Does that count?" Dan, the only student that replied that he had participated in some, said it was only with "with other Jewish students who are frum (orthodox). He never participated in any programs with the "blacks and other dregs of society" that he attends school with. Information regarding exactly who the other "dregs of society" were was not offered.

None of the students made mention of what role they played in class with the exception of Simon who said that he treated it much the same way he did his Talmud class, becoming deeply involved, challenging the instructor on many small points, much to the dismay of many of his classmates. Simon reported feeling perplexed at his classmates reaction.

Feeling perplexed or left out was a common theme among the students. Seven of the ten students mentioned that they feel or have felt an abnormal amount of stress and tension being in both yeshiva and college at the same time. Dan mentioned the problems with "time constraints." The dual program can average 15 hour days, "making it extremely hard to find time to do college homework", another poignant reference as to which program has priority.
Others mentioned coeducation. Coming from all male private education classrooms, "it s a different world , Hillel said. It can be rather perplexing and even disturbing to one who is unaccustomed to such a setting.
Still others mentioned standing out. Dan said that wearing his kippa (skullcap worn by orthodox Jewish males) everyone looked at me differently, as if I was a smart rich Jew. However, these differences were rather easy to overcome, as most claimed that their feelings of tension wore off within a couple of weeks, some in the most interesting way. Benji said, I just learned that I'm different from them and they are different from me. I'm not trying to be part of them and they are not trying to be part of me." He admitted that such a relationship made him somewhat of a loner but he did not care. "We just keep our distance." The belief was that they were there for a decidedly different purpose, and they would have to live with that while their classmates would have to learn to live with them. It was clear that this distinction bothered Benji somewhat. However he got used to it and accepted it as a fact.

Simon reported major difficulties along the same lines.
I ask many questions in class. Sometimes I try and gauge if the professor is being honest about my questions. When I raise my hand and say I'll try to be brief, I hear shifting in the classroom, I think it has to do with my being Jewish I mean, some of the people in my class are complete bozos. They don't get buggy when someone else asks questions, only me. I have to be careful so that I don't cause a chilul hashem (desecration of G-d's name). They are all laughing together at me. One time I asked a professor if his course material would be clean and appropriate before the semester. He told me it would, but he lied and penalized me for not reading a disgusting story, brushing aside my religious requirements.

Simon got straight to the heart of the matter and discovered some major differences in classroom structure and content between his two realities. Apparently, he finds it difficult to understand why his distinct style, mannerisms and sensitivities are hard to understand in an American classroom, believing that his religion and possibly, anti- Semitism, are the root causes of his classroom discomfort.
It is interesting to note, however, that Simon is not so concerned with how he is viewed in his class. They don't like him. So? Let them laugh, they are "bozos" anyway. Why would anyone object to a sincere attempt to understand and analyze the class material? His real concern is of violating religious law, and he tries to be careful not to cause a chilul hashem. Non association with other students does not bother him at all, as socializing is not an important aspect of his college experience.

Jacob saw the tension in a different way. When asked about tensions he has experienced at school he said,
Yes (I have experienced it). It s wild My very first class was a few hours before kol nidra (the solemn opening service for Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement) All around (the) yeshiva, it was a day of introspection. I went to college and heard a girl talk about her new king size bed and how it is so empty (implying that she would like some company in filling it up). That's the tip of the iceberg of the vast cultural differences. There is much more emphasis of enjoying life in college, the 'college scene.' In yeshiva, it boils down to how hard you work. I see how much free time everyone has. And then there is the girl thing. In college a girl is just a girl. In yeshiva, talking to a girl on the phone is a massive thing (a bad thing). In college, they treat each other like people.

Jacob had discovered a completely new, and decidedly different, culture. It seemed almost as if he was completely removing himself from his experience, analyzing his cultural experience much the same way he would analyze a text book. It was a learning experience in as much as he was observing a brand new culture, not socializing himself into a different one. It was quite clear which culture he believed superior, and that he, under no circumstances, would willingly allow the culture he was experiencing creep into his own personality.
The amount of respect in his voice when discussing his yeshiva vs the disdain he felt for the lack of morals of the college scene was easily evident. He was glowing, openly enthusiastic when describing the solemnness and holiness of the yeshiva. On the other hand, the open disdain and distaste for his university culture easily shone through..... Even his comments about the relationships with girls showed his perspective, as it was clear that comments such as "they treat each other like people" was meant to illustrate his surprise at the difference, and should not be taken as a rebuke of his yeshiva's policies.

It was very surprising that none of the students interviewed mentioned that they felt that their secular studies were a hindrance to their religious studies. Although some mentioned that they were greatly overworked, trying to adhere to all of the requirements of an exhaustive dual program, the students seemed more concerned about the curious effects inter societal mingling (or lack thereof) has on them, rather than the amount of time their chosen course of study was taking away from their religious pursuits. This was something they felt they had to do, even though it took time and almost Herculean effort to accomplish.

The most interesting, and diverse set of answers I received was regarding the benefits the students interviewed felt they have gained from being enrolled at a university. Some responses were predictable. Simon and Jacob both said that they "had more credits under their belts", and were therefore closer to finishing off their degrees. The rest of the students were evenly split. Those that had not been in university attendance for very long said that they felt they had gained nothing as of yet. After saying that, two mentioned that they had picked up some interesting information about psychology and anthropology, respectively. This, however, did not seem to be the kind of information or influence that they had been seeking from their college experience, possibly because these were general education courses and did not specifically help towards the completion of their majors. They apparently have found it hard to understand how the information they were processing was going to translate itself into making them more marketable for future employment.
Interestingly, two students said that college made them more worldly. Abraham s attitude did not come as a surprise to me. He was the one student that believed in his college's perspective over that of his yeshiva's. What makes his response all the more intriguing is the fact that Abraham had not mentioned becoming well rounded or worldly when asked about the purposes of university attendance. Instead, he felt that the university itself believed the importance of college attendance was for professional training, i.e. the learning of a trade. How or why the concept of worldliness entered his view now is hard to understand. Does he feel that he had extended past the stated goal of his university? Does he believe that something unintended has become the most important facet of his collegiate experience?
Two other students claimed that college attendance has greatly helped their Jewish studies, improving their study habits, and forcing them to work harder at their religious studies. However, this should be understood as a good thing because of the Jewish concept, according to the effort is the reward.

It is very clear that these students have resisted socialization by their university peers at all costs. They consider their universities to be potentially dangerous places that they must protect themselves from. They have a narrow focus. Their training is strictly vocational. The idea of becoming well rounded is at best a waste of time, better spent in religious pursuits. The "college scene" is a place with loose morals, a simple excuse for justifying any behavior. It was different from what they were accustomed to at yeshiva, and they found it unusual. They have chosen not to interact with their fellow students, whom they find inexplicably different as well as hard to comprehend. They have no desire to adapt or become part of this foreign environment as they are positive that the culture at their yeshiva suits them better.

They believe that college attendance can be positive if it, in some way, aids their religiosity by giving them peace of mind or teaching them important leadership skills. It is something that has to be done, and can be done safely as long as the student remains firmly entrenched within his yeshiva while pursuing it.
Upon the conclusion of his interview, Jacob remarked, "What an interesting series of questions to ask yeshiva guys." He felt that these were important questions that the students themselves should contemplate from time to time. However, he added, "You're not going to show this to your teacher, are you? I'm afraid that the goyishe velt (non Jewish world) won't understand."
He is absolutely correct. No matter how well presented or how thorough an introduction, it is extremely hard for outsiders to understand how yeshivot operate. Can anyone hope to understand a 2,000 year old institution cultivated in a ghetto society in a mere 15 pages? Certainly not. However, it is important to understand that the perspective these students espouse is the product of a carefully engineered program designed with one goal in mind, the furtherance and protection of traditional fundamentalist Judaism as it was meant to be practiced.
Assimilation is the largest single threat to orthodox Judaism in America. Many estimates claim that more Jews will simply disappear from sight then were killed in the Holocaust! Intermarriage is at its highest level in recorded Jewish history. Upon questioning, fewer and fewer Jews respond that if given a choice they would want to be born Jewish. The pride that has kept Judaism so vibrant for so many thousands of years is quickly withering away.

To many Jews, these facts are irrelevant, treated with indifference. However, to an institutions whose goal it is to promote fundamentalist traditional Judaism, it spells disaster. Isolation and intense programs are considered the strongest and most effective means of keeping young men Jewish. Rabbis at these institution are well aware of the effects collegiate peer interactions can have on their students, and they are vigilant against them. They fully understand that the more a student is exposed to the outside world with all of its enticements, the more likely he is to be affected and socialized by it, changing him forever. If we are honest, we would realize that this change is for the worse considering where these students have come from and the direction they have indicated they want to lead their lives.
Universities are not necessarily the root cause of the problems. However, they are symptomatic of it. Universities are accurate reflections of the community at large, and to many young yeshiva students, represent their first real interaction with the outside world. And, it is an extremely difficult thing. Many students, like Simon, don't understand that college is a different reality with a different culture. Things are done differently and what is an acceptable and encouraged practice at his yeshiva is looked at with scorn and ridicule at his university.

Overall, however, the system works well, keeping yeshiva students insulated, virtually unaffected by their peers, and completely orthodox, while affording them the opportunity to pursue careers. What s more, the rabbis at these institutions know that eventually their students will themselves some day go out into the secular world. The hope then is that this controlled environment in which their first experience took place will serve as a model for appropriate interactions throughout the rest of their lives.

There are dangers involved in such a set up as well. Some students, such as Dan, may misinterpret their orders to remain segregated as a justification for feeling superior and aloof. Calling college students the "dregs of society" is a perfect example of over applying the rabbis intentions. Most, however, never come to such radical conclusions. Benji's response was most representative, I'm different from them and they are different from me. I'm not trying to be part of them and they are not trying to be part of me. Perfection! He has understood exactly what his rabbis had intended. Do your own thing and remain who you are. You'll see many different people and things at school, don't let them get to you or affect you. You are a yeshiva student. Remember that and remain who you are and college can be a productive time in your life.

In conclusion, members of the university community must constantly keep in mind that their students differ in many ways. Every university has a mission. Many believe it important to socialize all students into their university's culture. And although there are always people who resist such socialization for unhealthy reasons, we must keep in mind that some are doing it for very well thought out and positive reasons. Our goal is to produce better and more productive citizens, but America is a country in which religious freedom and pluralism is an integral part. We must allow those who resist our mission for the sake of the strength and continuance of their religion, the space and comfort in which to do so.

A Whole 'lotta Jews

I went to the Salute to Israel Day Parade yesterday with my wife, kids, and some friends. I wound up right next to the reviewing stand on 61st and 5th Avenue. We arrived relatively early and really had an opportunity to enjoy seeing the diverse groups of Jewish marchers and other guests marching in support of Israel.

Despite cool weather and spotty sunshine, the parade was really enjoyable. Even one potentially ugly moment led to a benign outcome. I watched as a lone protester strode down 5th Avenue holding a bright orange sign that was handwritten with something along the lines of "Get rid of Olmert, yada yada yada."

One of the parade organizers, a woman, ran up to him and grabbed the sign from his hands crumpling it up and throwing it behind the sound system. I had noticed the sign and despite wearing an orange T-shirt under my own white polo shirt, sort of my own subtle statement, I felt annoyed to see such overt politicization on a day when I feel all Jews, at least those at the parade, should try to demonstrate as overt a sense of unity as possible.

A shouting match quickly ensued and in a heartbeat, four of NY's Finest huddled around the pair. After a moment or two of information gathering from the two combatants, the police officers demanded the furious woman return the man's sign...but they warned the man to keep he and his sign in the periphery and not try to march the parade route.

The protester, who was clearly not interested in getting arrested, promised to do so and after calling the parade organizer an 'idiot,' disappeared into the crowd, crumpled sign in hand. The woman looked furious and the man seemed cowed as he slunk away, but at least the First Amendment wasn't thoroughly trampled.

Standing on the sideline, I found myself ruminating two thoroughly counterintuitive points:

1) Watching an African American marching band, with its teenaged, scantily clad, leggy majorettes shaking their money makers to a crowd of young kids, 30-something parents and middle-aged to senior citizen Israel supporters, it occurred to me why the so-called frummer oylam, aside from their feelings toward the "State of Israel," would encourage their students to stay away. While definitely PG, probably even G-rated fare, some of the marchers still provided images the typical Rosh Yeshiva probably sits up nights thinking of ways to prevent talmidim from seeing. Certainly no less benign than the be-miniskirted Catholic high school girls I used to ride the city bus with every morning going to yeshiva, but a justifiable concern nonetheless.

2) Seeing the diverse range of Jewish people marching, thousands of Jews who seemed to range from completely secular to fairly religious frum, it struck me as unfortunate that a vast number of the so-called Chareidim will never fully see the true breadth of the Jewish nation, let alone view them as equals. Jews come in so many different varieties, but they are all still Jews. I know that in most cases the feeling is mutual, where more modern Jews look down their noses at "frummer" jews as ignorant, close-minded boors. Barely illustrating this point, but instructive nonetheless, standing right next to us were a few girls from Shulamith High School, an all girls school in Brooklyn, who loudly booed when another all girls school, that I know is slightly "frummer" than Shulamith, but of a very similar hashkafa, marched by. Though I know teenagers are by-and-large moronic, and wont to such pointless, petty elitism, I still couldn't help but chuckle knowing the Central (YU's girls high school) students who came marching past a few minutes later probably seemed pretty urbane to these same Shulamith girls. I noticed they didn't snicker at them. Needless to say, I remember from my own days in high School, the Central girls, though in my case it would have been the MTA guys, if they noticed at all, would have quite chuckle if told how cool these Shulamith thought they were. Apparently, everyone needs to look down or up on someone. and teenage pettiness aside, many Jews seem to have this tendency (myself included), which is to sneer at some Jews as provincial, and in the process elevate those who appear to be more sophisticated.

To punctuate this point of Jews viewing and appreciating each other as different parts of the same big, wacky family my brother-in-law, who is not completely observant, joined us at one point during the parade and was talking to my wife. A friend from shul passed by a few minutes later and stopped to chat. He glanced at my wife and then asked me who she was talking to. My friend, who grew up in a fairly modern background, surprised me, when i told him my wife was talking to her brother, by asking where his yarmulke was. It's possible he was joking around, he has a funny sense of humor (funny as in weird), but I found myself wondering why anyone would ask that question and why anyone would have to answer it. Instead I just said, "There are all types of Jews out there. And I love all Jews."

I really think all Jews, myself included, should practice saying those words in the mirror every day. "There are all types of Jews out there. And I love all Jews." It's a cleansing affirmation and it would do a whole 'lotta good. The fact is, there are a whole 'lotta Jews out there, and by hook or by crook, we all 'gotta get along.

1 Comments:

I loved this post, especially the last paragraph. I wish I could have attended the event. The only thing I would like to add, is that the charedi world could probably have the event more suited to their needs IF THEY WERE INVOLVED IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Hit Counter

MP3 Clips

Meebo Me!

BlogCatalog

Jainism Blogs - BlogCatalog Blog Directory